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The Impact of Trumps Wall

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ShiftyMutt
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The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:34 am

Not just that it's a huge waste of money but it can compromise the livelihood of over 100 endangered species.
An interesting article on the impact of Trumps wall. He's going to have a hard time maneuvering a wall without compromising endangered species.

the USFWS estimates that the project will “potentially impact” 111 endangered species, 108 species of migratory bird, four wildlife refuges and fish hatcheries, and an unknown number of protected wetlands.

From eagles to manatees to coyotes, this project threatens the habitat of 111 endangered species. I see another protest coming on.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2075761/t ... ed-species



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John Q. Public
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:08 am

There's also terrain issues, roads that would need to be built to get the concrete to it, and the facts that all of the land in Texas is privately owned, the border there is the Rio Grande and it moves, and there's even a golf resort that's in both countries and would lose 3 holes and something like 20 residences.

But Don has a high IQ. He can figure this out.
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John Q. Public
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:13 pm

Correction: About 1/10th of the border in Texas is in Big Bend National Park.
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Bick
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:18 pm

Is the preference no border security, or to continue to pretend what we have in place is working?

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Fordama
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Fordama » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:25 pm

How about stop pretending that a wall will do little to nothing,--especially considering the cost.
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Professor Fate
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Professor Fate » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:50 pm

None of these problems are insurmountable. Enviro-nazis are ridiculous. Every time someone wants to build anything, we hear about some rare, distant relative of the tse tse fly, or the cockroach, or some weed that might be endangered by the development (be it fencing, housing, pipeline, golf course, shooting range, dam, etc.).

Fences are all along the I-70 corridor, which runs along the Eagle river in Colorado, but they have wildlife crossings. No problem. The existing fencing along the Mexican border, is 18' tall metal posts 4' apart. I saw one propaganda photo of a poor forlorn little froggy, blocked by the fence. Obviously staged somewhere else, because that amphibian would have no trouble with the 4" gaps. Wherever possible regular openings in the fence were placed also.

Here's a paragraph from a Newsweek article on the subject that was anything but sympathetic to the wall:

"...The cure is to leave key wildlife areas barrier-free, Lasky says. Before construction of the existing sections, biologists mapped out existing wildlife corridors so that openings could be placed where animals needed them. However, then-Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff waived environmental laws for construction of the fence. That meant DHS was not required to investigate the fence’s potential ecological impacts—or to even follow the maps. Wildlife openings were installed at regular intervals on some sections of the barrier, but placement was based on various factors, including whether the fence ran near residences or vegetated land. Wildlife sometimes took a back seat to other considerations. One 22-mile section of the barrier, made of solid concrete for flood control purposes, has no openings..."

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/26/envi ... 26310.html

I have included this paragraph to show the following:

1. Wildlife crossings are a part of the existing wall segments.There's no reason to suppose that would be any different on future sections.
2. The placement of those crossings could have been better, and, hopefully they will pay more attention to the locations recommended by the biologists.
3. The Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, appointed by Trump, has the power to waive the environmental laws for construction of the fence.
4. There are some places where other concerns such as the mentioned flood control section, where there will be no crossings.

There also could be larger openings at known crossing areas for larger animals. Those areas would, of course, need more attention by the Border Patrol, but that's doable.

You're not going to stop the wall.
Things under Obama got a lot worse before they started to get better – and they only started to get better after the GOP took over half of Congress and put the brakes on spending.

Bick
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:59 pm

Fordama wrote:How about stop pretending that a wall will do little to nothing,--especially considering the cost.


It's more like 2 fences with a space in between that can accommodate patrol motor vehicles. There's data that supports the effectiveness of this from both Israel and the San Ysidro border.

I'm conflicted about the whole open border discussion, but I'm leaning toward securing the border in addition to some other stuff that I believe would greatly reduce illegal immigration.

My question to you is simply do you think we should secure our borders?

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:18 pm

With manpower and technology, not a stupid wall.

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:22 pm

You're not going to stop the wall.

We'll see ..

It would be biggest waste of tax payer money in my memory. His 20% import tax will just cost us in goods. But I know Trumps base has to have visuals to understand things.

Bick
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:36 pm

Mutt - what do you think the annual cost of illegal immigration is? I'm curious what your cost / benefit analysis is.

I'm not advocating building a fence at this point BTW. Just gathering some info from those of you in the know.

MDDad
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby MDDad » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:38 pm

I don't think a wall is a very good idea, but I'm still wondering how an 18-foot wall can be a danger to eagles. Every eagle I've ever seen could fly at least 19 feet off the ground. And besides, I'd guess all those windmills that environmentalists and green energy people love so much probably kill or injure a hundred times more eagles than a border wall would.

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:46 pm

It's illegal to disturb an eagles nest.

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Bick, when you factor in the taxes they pay and the cheap labor I believe it far outweighs the cost. Plus they spend into the economy.

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Professor Fate
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Professor Fate » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:54 pm

And of course, it's out of the question to expect them to come in legally, get a work permit, and do that cheap labor and pay taxes.
Things under Obama got a lot worse before they started to get better – and they only started to get better after the GOP took over half of Congress and put the brakes on spending.

Bick
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:03 pm

ShiftyMutt wrote:Bick, when you factor in the taxes they pay and the cheap labor I believe it far outweighs the cost. Plus they spend into the economy.


Do you actually have any #'s that support this?

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:05 pm

I don't.. just what stuck in my mind when I read that it would take about 1.6 trillion out of GDP.

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:08 pm

Professor Fate wrote:And of course, it's out of the question to expect them to come in legally, get a work permit, and do that cheap labor and pay taxes.

It's why they need a pathway to citizenship and not deportation. It would cost far more to apprehend, detain, process and transport them.

Bick
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:15 pm

ShiftyMutt wrote:I don't.. just what stuck in my mind when I read that it would take about 1.6 trillion out of GDP.


Hadn't heard that before. Where did you read that?

Assuming it is true, do you advocate not enforcing our borders? What we're doing doesn't work very well.

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John Q. Public
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:25 pm

I think the number is something like 8% of GDP. Illegals account for about the same amount of productivity and cost as citizens do. No numbers at the moment but it's pretty simple logic.
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Professor Fate
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Re: The Impact of Trumps Wall

Postby Professor Fate » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:38 pm

by ShiftyMutt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:08 pm

It's why they need a pathway to citizenship and not deportation. It would cost far more to apprehend, detain, process and transport them.
I'm not opposed to that, but without securing the border it'll never happen. Much easier now for them to ignore the law and enter illegally.
Things under Obama got a lot worse before they started to get better – and they only started to get better after the GOP took over half of Congress and put the brakes on spending.

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