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Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

OC HS Football Fan
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Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:45 am

Time for some real truth. Sorry if this hurts any feelings with the MD snowflakes out there.

MD used to take pride (actually were really snobbish) about their vaunted football culture. Players acted and behaved a certain way; this included loyalty, no trash talking, team above self, discipline, individual development, respect for the coaches, etc.

Well, having NEVER won a D1 or open division CIF championship (and until last year, a Trinity title in forever) has caused those values to be tossed right out the door. Now you have so many me first players, dads starting fights at different venues, moms screaming negative things about kids on the other team, kids non-stop trash talking, allowing some families into their program with highly questionable integrity (but, hey, their kid is a stud athlete), and no respect for Rollinson the great.

Even the school has no loyalty to their athletes (allowing senior transfers, telling all of these naive underclassmen they will get varsity reps when the coaches know that is never going to happen until their senior year, etc.).

Now MD has a win at all cost mentality, Rollo is widely considered a joke by many of the kids and parents the program brought in from places outside of traditional MD sources, and the culture is literally upside down. So many kids who once would have attended MD are no longer going there.

Massive recruiting with certain people in and around the program are to blame. Alumni opening those fat wallets to pay for these kids without requiring the families to have any skin in the game. Rollo being mocked as old, out of touch, and still too tied to his old ways because he didn't make their kid a starter on varsity their freshman year. It goes on and on. No attempt like there was in years past to mold these kids into fine young men.

Look, people from different cultures doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. I've seen people on a Servite thread inaccurately calling MD a thug culture. That is not the case. However, the program has changed considerably in the last 3-4 years and it isn't all for the good. Even the kids they recruited in don't like the school; they think playing there will help them get their scholie so they put up with it.

To be fair, this new win at all cost approach finally lead MD to a Trinity League title for the first time in forever (thank you to the Bosco kids who gave MD that game). And they are loaded with talent (the best JV football team around LOL!). So it has worked in their unyielding thirst for victories.

Is it fair to say MD has gone FARTHER than ANY other Trinity League program (hell any SoCal program) to change for the sake of winning? Even Bosco had no culture or history or values, so they haven't even changed as much as MD has; the Monarchs need to take responsibility for their sell out. Quit trying to deny it. Just accept it and move on (otherwise you just look plain foolish).

When another Trinity school rises up and wins without selling itself out and walking away from it's core values like MD did, many of us will consider it a far greater accomplishment than anything MD does on the field these next few seasons.
Last edited by OC HS Football Fan on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.



cruiser
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby cruiser » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:16 am

Wow, and this coming from a poster that joined just three days ago! Hmm, a lot of individual agenda's
going on here,this appears to be someone that has it on for MD, maybe from some other Trinty
league school(s), just maybe? - could also be older anti-MD posters - who signed on as different posters
which I'm betting is the case.

Plus, it appears these newer posters don't go after Bosco or CC, who started the whole thing,
interesting to say the least.

OC HS Football Fan
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:34 am

@cruiser - so, you were never a new poster? What does that have to do with anything? You're not only a MD snowflake apologist, but you thereby admit my post is accurate because, instead of refuting my points, you simply say why not go after those who did it first, I'm a new poster, I must hate MD, blah, blah, blah. Hmmm, interesting to say the least is an understatement!

I actually don't mind MD - it is a decent academic institution with incredible athletic programs (albeit in a crap, gang infested area). I just call it like I see it. What bothers me is that you all just can't admit, and instead like to think you're somehow still basking in the old glow of a well run and widely respected football program with class and integrity. You can't have it both ways.

cruiser
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby cruiser » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:40 am

Would you consider USC or Loyola HS in a good area?

OC HS Football Fan
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:43 am

CC and Bosco didn't do it first. Technically Servite did it under Thomas but they did so while maintaining their core values. I did take a shot at Bosco in my original post; they had no tradition or meaningful values from witch to deviate from, and this wasn't about who was worse. Just know you're both in a race to the bottom..
Last edited by OC HS Football Fan on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

OC HS Football Fan
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:44 am

USC's area is hit and miss. I don't know enough about Loyola's area. What does this have to do with MD and their crap area? Maybe I need to get the LA Times so I can keep up with other school's areas for the MD folks on this board. :roll:
Last edited by OC HS Football Fan on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

cruiser
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby cruiser » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:46 am

I rest my case.

OC HS Football Fan
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:50 am

Haha - go ahead and rest your case. You think USC is in a bad area just because it's a black area? Wow! :bonk:

MDDad
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby MDDad » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:31 pm

OC HS Football Fan, first of all, welcome to the forum. New blood and viewpoints are always appreciated.

Second, you seem to have appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner in the infamous Mater Dei Soul-Selling Case. If you have all the answers and have already reached your verdict, why did you bother posting the title of this thread as a question?

Third, this didn't start with Servite and Troy Thomas. It started about five years before that when another current Trinity League school began bringing in large numbers of transfers with the enticement of large tuition "discounts", van-pools and online classes.

And fourth, you single out Mater Dei for your soul-selling invective for some interesting reasons. I can assure you all six teams in the league are actively marketing themselves and recruiting talent. Yet you dismiss St. John Bosco because you feel they don't have a soul to begin with. And you dismiss the other four league teams because despite their best efforts at selling their souls, they don't seem to have as many takers. So by your process of elimination, only Mater Dei can be guilty because (a) unlike Bosco, they have a soul, (b) they are trying to sell it, and (c) more families than at the other four schools are interested in the product. I think I got it.

P.S.:
OC HS Football Fan wrote:You think USC is in a bad area just because it's a black area? Wow!

And you seem to think Mater Dei is in a bad area just because it's Hispanic? Wow!

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Professor Fate
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby Professor Fate » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:47 pm

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what OC HS FB Fan has said. But, like MDDad, I have some areas of disagreement.

1. Servite under Troy Thomas, did not start it. In fact, Eric Sondheimer wrote an article that said pretty much, that the opposite was true:

By Eric Sondheimer
May 23, 2011

...Another example of a public school embracing a private school coach involves Agoura High.

Football Coach Charlie Wegher heard Troy Thomas of Anaheim Servite speak in January at a coaching clinic, and he asked him to come to Agoura to give a talk on how he has been able to use "positive coaching" to create a culture of excellence at Servite.

More than 70 coaches from different sports at Agoura and the local community came to hear Thomas speak last month.

"Troy made an amazing speech," assistant principal Matt Baldwin said. "I was ready to play for him."

This week, Agoura is bringing in the Positive Coaching Alliance to start holding workshops. Next month teachers and students will be involved, and Wegher is vowing to create a different culture at Agoura using Thomas' ideas.

"They try to put kids in leadership positions so they play more confidently," Wegher said.

People are trying to understand how Thomas has been able to guide Servite to consecutive Pac-5 Division championships without being accused of illegal recruiting.

"Whether you're a private school or public school, recruiting is wrong," Thomas said. "It's not high school athletics."

If public school coaches could feel comfortable that coaches or parents at private schools weren't trying to recruit their players, more cooperation could take place.

"I don't look at it as private school guys versus public school guys," Thomas said. "I look at it as good coaches trying to develop leadership and character traits in their young men."

Does this all mean that the public schools in the Marmonte League are going to suddenly start thinking of Westlake Village Oaks Christian and Ventura St. Bonaventure as good buddies?

Probably not, but little steps can be taken to build trust, and it takes people with courage to start looking for ways to cooperate and help one another in the very competitive field of high school sports.

Thomas said winning is a "byproduct of trying to create good leadership and good character."

Public and private schools can agree about that.

eric.sondheimer@latimes.com

2. IMHO, MD Basketball started it all. Then came the van pool incident at O Lu that I believe is what MDDad referred to. Then Bosco outdid both of those teams in both Football (with the arrival of Negro as HC) and in basketball, (when their top seven hoops players were all transfers).

3. I also agree with MDDad's 4th point. All Trinity League teams are now doing it, (although not to the extent of Bosco and MD, IMHO). They had to choose between doing so or getting left behind, although they have still been left behind, at least so far.
Things under Obama got a lot worse before they started to get better – and they only started to get better after the GOP took over half of Congress and put the brakes on spending.

MJD_33
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby MJD_33 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:54 pm

We have seen time and time again, other Trinity League football teams take a huge influx of transfers almost every season. Santa Margarita with D-1 players such as Crawford, Green, Funa, McClain brothers...Servite with D-1 players such as Croom, Bynum, Lytle, Keith Taylor, Durate... we don't make a big deal out of them because they can't do anything with those transfers. They continue to lose with them.


the difference between Bosco/MD and pretty much the rest of the TL schools with transfers is that they are actually able to succeed with them.

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pattywannamack
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby pattywannamack » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:01 pm

Mater Dei is in an awesome area. Great Mexican food, and world shopping destination South Coast Plaza is within a few miles.

The surrounding area was legitimately one of my favorite things about going to Mater Dei. It looks a little run down...but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. A lot of the local businesses really enjoy having MD students as customers...and I used to get stopped by local families every once in a while saying how much they enjoy the school's pressence and how they hope to one day send their kids there.

I know this is hard for people to stomach but a Hispanic area does not mean it's a bad neighborhood...

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pattywannamack
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby pattywannamack » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:04 pm

You could tell MD sold its soul when they introduced those stupid gray uniforms...
There is nothing uglier in this world than a parent riding on the success of their child.

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Tommy Tar
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby Tommy Tar » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:18 pm

Do we have cockroach back? This could be fun.
‘I Haven’t Seen Democrats This Mad Since We Freed the Slaves!’..... Rob Schneider.

MDDad
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby MDDad » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:37 pm

Patty, I hope you remember that Mater Dei's official school colors are actually red and gray.

Tommy Tar, the bug spray has always been at the ready.

Professor, nice post. I'd add just one comment. Yes, Troy Thomas had some great coaching principles. But it takes more than principles to create a winning program at the highest level. One has only to look at the collapse of the Crespi program since returned there for evidence that principles are not enough. It takes Jimmy's and Joe's as well.

Servite during the Thomas era was a fortunate confluence of several factors. First, Troy Thomas is not only an excellent coach, he was also the right coach at the right time. Second, Servite historically had kids come out for football in very large numbers. Math tells us you're more likely to find a couple diamonds sifting through 200 lumps of coal as opposed to 50. And third, how shall I say this diplomatically? Troy was not exactly hurt by the fact that he had the Frank Kalil pipeline from the Inland Empire providing him some exceptional players...all without any undue influence or pre-enrollment contact of course.

On a more positive note, the Trinity League was fortunate around 2010 and 2011 to have Jim Hartigan, Jim Kunau, Jason Negro, Bruce Rollinson, Troy Thomas and Harry Welch all as head coaches at the same time. It's hard to imagine any league ever had a greater combination of talented and accomplished head coaches running their member schools' programs at the same time.

OC HS Football Fan
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby OC HS Football Fan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:00 pm

MDDad wrote:OC HS Football Fan, first of all, welcome to the forum. New blood and viewpoints are always appreciated.

Second, you seem to have appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner in the infamous Mater Dei Soul-Selling Case. If you have all the answers and have already reached your verdict, why did you bother posting the title of this thread as a question?

Third, this didn't start with Servite and Troy Thomas. It started about five years before that when another current Trinity League school began bringing in large numbers of transfers with the enticement of large tuition "discounts", van-pools and online classes.

And fourth, you single out Mater Dei for your soul-selling invective for some interesting reasons. I can assure you all six teams in the league are actively marketing themselves and recruiting talent. Yet you dismiss St. John Bosco because you feel they don't have a soul to begin with. And you dismiss the other four league teams because despite their best efforts at selling their souls, they don't seem to have as many takers. So by your process of elimination, only Mater Dei can be guilty because (a) unlike Bosco, they have a soul, (b) they are trying to sell it, and (c) more families than at the other four schools are interested in the product. I think I got it.

P.S.:

And you seem to think Mater Dei is in a bad area just because it's Hispanic? Wow!


@MDDad - I have come to appreciate your logic and viewpoints with many of your posts. But allow me to highlight certain portions of your response. It appears, at times, like you're pounding a round peg through a square hole in an ill-fated attempt to apologize for MD rather than simply admitting its faults.

Similar to cruiser, you don't counter my points. Rather, you argue other items in what must be construed only as a clear acknowledgement that the changes I noted are in fact true. Just want to get that out of the way.

I am neither the judge, jury nor the executioner. Rather, I am the attorney who listed the facts as I have seen them. Let's let the readers determine and assign for themselves any guilt as they may. Although, as we've already established, you and cruiser appear to agree with me that MD has in fact deviated from their culture in an attempt to regain long-lost winning glory.

Fair enough - but no other schools did it to the degree of MD and Bosco.

Yes, Bosco has no soul. Is there any question?

While all Trinity League teams recruit, and granted they do it to different degrees of success, I would argue MD and Bosco have taken it the furthest in a race to the bottom both seem all too willing to achieve as fast as they can. None of the other schools are willing to compromise their values to the same degree. Now it begs teh question, is it wrong if it's done legally (at least mostly so given the rules against recruiting they all seem to violate)? To your point, are we splitting hairs here and MD is just better at it? Fair question.

P.S.S.: I never said it's a bad area for ethnic reasons. I said it was a bad area for gang reasons. When the school has to shut down because of gang bangers shooting at each other and the stray bullets are flying toward the school, I would call that a crappy area. Has nothing to do with looks, proximity to South Coast Plaza (like that matters to 99% of the kids there), or the great Mexican food you can find nearby. MD people are too funny with this horrible reasoning of how great it is around there... :lol:

The Old Gym
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby The Old Gym » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:23 pm

Please advise as to the number of days the school has had to be shut down because of its location and surrounding activities over the course of its history.

Just in the last five years it's 1 day out of something like a 1,000 school days probably.

MDDad
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby MDDad » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:58 pm

OC HS Football Fan wrote:@MDDad - I have come to appreciate your logic and viewpoints with many of your posts.

Thanks.

It appears, at times, like you're pounding a round peg through a square hole in an ill-fated attempt to apologize for MD rather than simply admitting its faults.

I think the only square hole I’m trying to pound a round peg through is your implication that Mater Dei’s actions are somehow unique. They aren’t. Please take it from someone who sees a lot of this stuff from the inside, every top program does it, and those that opted to take the high road (like Loyola and Sherman Oaks Notre Dame) aren’t top programs any longer.

Similar to cruiser, you don't counter my points. Rather, you argue other items in what must be construed only as a clear acknowledgement that the changes I noted are in fact true.

I can’t speak for cruiser, but the “changes” you describe are common to all top programs. It’s the degree of success using those approaches that differs.

Although, as we've already established, you and cruiser appear to agree with me that MD has in fact deviated from their culture in an attempt to regain long-lost winning glory.

I don’t think we’ve already established anything. The nature of high school football has changed, and I as much as anybody am saddened by it. I suspect schools like Estancia, Bolsa Grande and Sonora haven’t deviated from their "cultures" as much as you think the top programs have, and everyone is certainly free to support those programs instead if they choose.

Fair enough - but no other schools did it to the degree of MD and Bosco.

No, no other schools have been as successful at it as Bosco and Mater Dei. If you don’t see the transfers those other schools don’t get, or the top freshman that don’t enroll there, or the “hundred dollars a month” offers from those other schools that are turned down, you get an inaccurate picture of what’s going on. For the last three years, I’ve tracked the number of transfers on each school’s varsity roster, and Mater Dei has been in the bottom half of the league every year. I strongly suspect they will be again this fall. Does that buy back some of that soul?

Yes, Bosco has no soul. Is there any question?

I think I’ll leave that for Bosco supporters to answer.

None of the other schools are willing to compromise their values to the same degree.

Again, that’s just not true. One prostitute is not more virtuous than another because she bags fewer Johns. Would it surprise you to know that there have been at least eight 4- and 5-star players who attempted to transfer to Mater Dei this off-season and were turned down? Would that buy back a little more of that soul you insist they’ve lost?

P.S.S.: I never said it's a bad area for ethnic reasons. I said it was a bad area for gang reasons.

Look, Mater Dei serves an underprivileged neighborhood, as do Bosco and Servite. We can’t all be located in God's country south of the El Toro Y, where everyone eats Wonder Bread with the crust cut off and bullets never fly. I don’t think any of those three schools feel any reason to apologize for where they are located or the people they serve, and shame on anyone who denigrates them for their addresses or surrounding demographics.

Quiet on Baker
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby Quiet on Baker » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:13 pm

MDDad nailed it. Thanks. You saved me a lot of time.

joefutbol
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Re: Did MD FB Program Sell Their Soul?

Postby joefutbol » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:38 pm

They aren't more or less guilty than anyone else. They, along with Bosco, are just better at it right now. All the Trininty schools have been doing it, and they've been doing it for a while. Servite just got to the party late. Or did you think they hired Meyer simply for the X's and O's?

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