Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

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John Q. Public
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Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:10 am

When it doesn't sound like that's what they want to do, at all?

Their complaint is that it's being used for simple immigration enforcement instead of its primary purpose of catching criminal aliens and terrorists. From what I've read, they want to go back to the INS handling the gardeners and hotel maids and they want to free up ICE to chase after the murderers, rapists and drug runners. But they aren't calling for it to stop its work. I don't understand that. Seems to me like the terminology they're using is playing directly into Donald's hand.




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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby broman » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:59 pm

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post But they aren't calling for it to stop its work. I don't understand that. Seems to me like the terminology they're using is playing directly into Donald's hand.


I agree. Most people have problem with family separation but they still have respect for people on the front lines like ICE and border patrol agents. Bad policy and bad optics at a time when Donald has all the cards and the momentum.

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Omar Bongo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:14 pm

Who is "The Dems"? Who exactly is calling for the abolition of ICE?
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:49 pm

Most visibly, Kirsten Gillibrand, Bill de Blasio and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Reps. Mark Pocan of Wisconsin, Pramila Jayapal of Washington state and Adriano Espaillat of New York are working on legislation to eliminate it. Their complaint is that it's being used as a deportation force instead of its original purpose of being a criminal investigation unit of DHS. Nineteen ICE agents wrote a letter to Kirstjen Nielsen asking that its gardener deportation and criminal investigation units be split into separate agencies and the "ICE" name taken off the front door.

The "open border" fringe wants it eliminated entirely, but I think that with most of them it's just a very unfortunate choice of words - especially in an election year. It's a practical solution to them but it's nitro-methane for Don and the far right.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:28 am

You think they'd know better.

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Omar Bongo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:42 pm

Calling for the abolition of ICE will gin up support on the left and opposition on the right. It's a very recent development that has really taken off in the last couple of weeks. It's an overreaction to the heinous family separation policy, which in itself was an overreaction. The right approach would be to do what you suggest in the OP and limit ICE to very specific serious and violent crimes, which was its original mission before the Aryan Resistance took over the White House.

The battle is for the middle and the Scumbag in Chief has no qualms about shamelessly repeating his lie that immigrants are responsible for most of the crime in this country. We should continue to call him out on that.

Passions are still high from the family separation fiasco. I think as time passes, those calling for abolishing ICE will evolve to a compromise position and end up calling for reform instead of abolition. You could even argue that that's what some of those calling for abolition are actually doing - setting up the starting reform-negotiating position farther to the left than it would have been if they had just called for an investigation. A "shoot for the stars, settle for the moon" strategy...

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Tommy Tar » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:50 am

The midterm elections are in a few months and this END ICE is just starting to get legs with the democrats. IMO this works with the democrat base but not with the moderate democrats that voted for Trump in 2016. We see the signs at the protest. We hear the chants. No wall! No borders! END ICE!

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:27 am

Tommy Tar wrote:Source of the post IMO this works with the democrat base but not with the moderate democrats that voted for Trump in 2016.


How many democrats do you suppose voted for trump in 2016?
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:34 am

A good many, actually. It's who gave him the Rust Belt.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:38 am

Tommy Tar wrote:Source of the post IMO this works with the democrat base but not with the moderate democrats that voted for Trump in 2016.

It might work with the far left but I think it's a mistake to think it will work with all Democrats. And the language they're using only feeds the Republican propaganda machine, which is an even bigger mistake.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:06 am

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post A good many, actually. It's who gave him the Rust Belt.


I can see a lot of democrats staying away from the polls out of disgust for Hillary but I don't believe a great many democrats voted for trump. What makes you say he got a lot of democratic votes?
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:46 am

Blue collar workers. It was pretty well documented that a lot of people from Western Pennsylvania to Michigan who'd previously been dependable Democratic voters went with Trump. People staying home was a problem in the South but there were a whole lot of people saying the status quo wasn't working for them and decided to take a shot with Trump.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby broman » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:32 am

Counties that flipped from Obama to Trump. Explains how Trump won Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio and Pennsylvania
Image

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:50 am

Well, for what it's worth, that's not a map of the "rust belt".
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:21 am

The lower peninsula of Michigan and that strip of orange in northern Ohio are the most telling. They're definitely not Republican country. You could probably add the orange in New York too, but Ohio and Michigan are where it really made a difference.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby MDDad » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:54 am

Vilepagan wrote:How many democrats do you suppose voted for trump in 2016?

4.6 million, or 9% of all Democrats who voted, voted for Trump.

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Tommy Tar » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:03 pm



This little group is growing.
‘I Haven’t Seen Democrats This Mad Since We Freed the Slaves!’..... Rob Schneider.

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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:16 pm

Tommy Tar wrote:Source of the post This little group is growing.


I'm sure they said that about the Scientologists at some point too.
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby Omar Bongo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:22 pm

Tommy Tar wrote:Source of the post We see the signs at the protest. We hear the chants. No wall! No borders! END ICE!

Liar. Democrats are not calling for "no borders". Why do you feel you have to lie?
"Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic."
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Re: Can anyone explain the wisdom of Democrats saying they want to "abolish" ICE?

Postby MDDad » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:06 pm

The numbers are the numbers. Roughly 4.6 million Democrats voted for Trump, and 3.2 million Republicans voted for Hillary.

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