Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

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John Q. Public
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Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:03 am

A couple stories from yesterday:

Starbucks decides to write "Come Together" on their cups as a message to Congress;
Retail sales grow at 0.7% as opposed to 2% a year ago

And one from today:

Consumer Confidence Tumbles Over Fiscal Cliff

And my question is, "Where in the hell is business on this?" Where is Walmart? Where is Target? Where is Mattel. And Apple? And the Chamber of Commerce? The economy has been growing and they all stood to have banner years, but instead, they got a measly 0.7% (average) growth in their "make or break" season - all because of uncertainty over a crisis that was created solely by Congressional Teabaggers. There would be no Budget Control Act, no Supercommittee and no sequestration if it weren't for their stonewalling last year and it wouldn't be an issue this year if they faced reality.

Do they not have businesses in their districts? Do they not get campaign contributions from any of them? The consumer products industry has a lot of muscle and it doesn't seem to have used any of it where it counts. Yes, they declared dividends early but that only benefits stockholders and board members, not the business itself. They have a huge stake in this but they've been amazingly silent.

If it were me, I'd be writing "Would you just frickin' do something already???" on everything I sell.


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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Parrotpaul » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:13 am

A WISH TO LIVE FOREVER

I met a fairy who said she would grant me one wish.

Immediately I said, "I want to live forever."

"Sorry," said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant eternal life."

"OK," I said, "Then, I want to die after Congress gets its head out of its ass!"

"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

Donray
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Donray » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:55 am

What is so bad about raising taxes on everyone? Obama is for everyone paying their fair share and having 2% pay more does not seem fair.

The spending cuts that would go into affect are what Obama wanted so what is wrong with added revenue and decreased spending?

Do Democrats want only increased revenue and increased spending?

Where is Obama on Social Security (besides cutting revenue) and Medicare?

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John Q. Public
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:10 pm

Donray wrote:What is so bad about raising taxes on everyone? Obama is for everyone paying their fair share and having 2% pay more does not seem fair.

The spending cuts that would go into affect are what Obama wanted so what is wrong with added revenue and decreased spending?

Do Democrats want only increased revenue and increased spending?

Where is Obama on Social Security (besides cutting revenue) and Medicare?

That would be another thread. This one's about American businesses having their bottom lines hammered and being surprisingly complacent about it.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Tommy Tar » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:53 pm

Vote coming this Sunday night. :-"
Dow -115 at noon, now -15.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Parrotpaul » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:55 pm

It's fun to watch the gyrations.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:27 pm

John Q. Public wrote:... Congressional Teabaggers. There would be no Budget Control Act, no Supercommittee and no sequestration if it weren't for their stonewalling last year and it wouldn't be an issue this year if they faced reality.


Sorry, but I disagree. Obama's win was not a mandate, but he will not compromise on tax or spending cuts. Because of that, the republicans are at fault? I think that is a very one sided perspective.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Donray » Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:53 pm

John Q. Public wrote:That would be another thread. This one's about American businesses having their bottom lines hammered and being surprisingly complacent about it.


If they say that Obama is wrong, Obama will just say that businesses are evil look at what they want.

It is no win for Wal-Mart to get involved with Obama. They know that Obama will do nothing for big businesses.

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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:03 pm

He's already compromised. In his statement on his last offer he either said the break point on the tax increase would be $400K or he gave a percentage that indicated that (I don't remember which way he said it). And when the platform he ran on and the majority of the country voted for was what he's presented, that does give him a pretty good mandate.

On the Republican side, Boehner introduced his "Plan B" which wasn't anything more than a CYA bill because he knew Obama would never sign it, but at least he'd be able to say "But we tried." His (now) sophomore contingent wouldn't even vote for it and left him hanging out to dry. They're the ones who aren't serious about this, not Obama or Boehner or most everybody else in Congress. They created the fiscal cliff (more of a really steep hill, really) and they're the ones who are going to push us over it if somebody doesn't get them to wise up.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby afan95 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:12 pm

John Q. Public wrote:He's already compromised. In his statement on his last offer he either said the break point on the tax increase would be $400K or he gave a percentage that indicated that (I don't remember which way he said it). And when the platform he ran on and the majority of the country voted for was what he's presented, that does give him a pretty good mandate.

On the Republican side, Boehner introduced his "Plan B" which wasn't anything more than a CYA bill because he knew Obama would never sign it, but at least he'd be able to say "But we tried." His (now) sophomore contingent wouldn't even vote for it and left him hanging out to dry. They're the ones who aren't serious about this, not Obama or Boehner or most everybody else in Congress. They created the fiscal cliff (more of a really steep hill, really) and they're the ones who are going to push us over it if somebody doesn't get them to wise up.

Do you really believe they were voting on fiscal cliff issues? Probably more like contraception, Obamacare, and abortion rights and the fear of what would happen if Romney tried to change these things.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:14 pm

Donray wrote:If they say that Obama is wrong, Obama will just say that businesses are evil look at what they want.

It is no win for Wal-Mart to get involved with Obama. They know that Obama will do nothing for big businesses.

Oh. Right. Obama's a commie who hates business. I forgot. And you forgot that business has been doing very well the last couple of years, despite the President doing everything he could to stop them.

But business loves business and I'd think they'd be speaking up or trying to influence whoever they have to influence to keep business from going down the toilet again. They don't seem to be doing that.

Or... are the corporate powers that be more concerned about their personal bottom lines than those of their businesses? Walmart's CEO might take a bit of a hit if his taxes go up but his stores will take a major hit if his customers' taxes go up.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby John Q. Public » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:16 pm

afan95 wrote:Do you really believe they were voting on fiscal cliff issues? Probably more like contraception, Obamacare, and abortion rights and the fear of what would happen if Romney tried to change these things.

Those were factors but the bulk of what he ran on was what he's presented to Congress on the budget.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby afan95 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:31 pm

http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com/

These kids and their parents will not suffer if we go over the cliff (even though some may not be from the US). The 1% may whine about all of this stuff, but they will survive.

That's why you're not hearing from the likes of Walmart, Target, etc. They will survive. It's the little guy that will get hurt. And that's not anyone currently in the White House or recently in the White House, or in Congress, now or in the recent past.

Sorry but at this point, I honestly don't think anyone but my family really cares about me and my livelihood; the rest is just feel good rhetoric to earn them that nice government pension for the rest of their lives. So IMO, we're just all a bunch of pawns in their little game. I am taking care of myself and my family and am not worrying about what the government's doing because I will not depend on them to care for me.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby afan95 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:47 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... awaii.html



She has worn the sandals, originally $995, once before in September 2011 during an Independence day barbeque at the White House.

Like I said above...they will survive.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Troglodyte » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:27 pm

John Q. Public wrote: And my question is, "Where in the hell is business on this?" The economy has been growing and they all stood to have banner years, but instead, they got a measly 0.7% (average) growth in their "make or break" season - all because of uncertainty .

You're right about the uncertainty. But it isn't businessw thaqt's causing it. It's the consumers. Business stood on it's head to sell products. They did everything to attract customers and make sales. The consumers sat on their wallets.
Too many incomplete laws passed without a clue as to the funding. Too many wild ideas floating off the hill that the common citizen knows is illogical, and won't work to fix what it's supposed to fix. Laws and regulations that will stifle jobs and push our products out of the marketplace instead of increasing the economy. Too much ridiculous spending added over a monsterous debt, with the only recourse is to raise already backbreaking taxes. An administration who refuses to listen to other ideas, and insists it be their way or the hiway..
A government who does the exact opposit of what any rational consumer would do if they were in the same position as those idiots in foggy bottom..
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Wabash » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:54 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree. Obama's win was not a mandate, but he will not compromise on tax or spending cuts. Because of that, the republicans are at fault? I think that is a very one sided perspective.

Actually it was a mandate. And current polling supports that position. The same polling conservatives embraced when it supported their position that Obamacare was rammed down their throats.

One business group that is worried is the defense industry. Their funding dries up in a heartbeat if the automatic defense cuts agreed upon by both sides take effect 1/1.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:27 am

Wabash wrote:Actually it was a mandate. And current polling supports that position. The same polling conservatives embraced when it supported their position that Obamacare was rammed down their throats.

One business group that is worried is the defense industry. Their funding dries up in a heartbeat if the automatic defense cuts agreed upon by both sides take effect 1/1.


Sorry, but a few percentage points is not a mandate. You can call it a duck if you want, but it is neither a duck nor a mandate.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:29 am

John Q. Public wrote:He's already compromised. In his statement on his last offer he either said the break point on the tax increase would be $400K or he gave a percentage that indicated that (I don't remember which way he said it). And when the platform he ran on and the majority of the country voted for was what he's presented, that does give him a pretty good mandate.

On the Republican side, Boehner introduced his "Plan B" which wasn't anything more than a CYA bill because he knew Obama would never sign it, but at least he'd be able to say "But we tried." His (now) sophomore contingent wouldn't even vote for it and left him hanging out to dry. They're the ones who aren't serious about this, not Obama or Boehner or most everybody else in Congress. They created the fiscal cliff (more of a really steep hill, really) and they're the ones who are going to push us over it if somebody doesn't get them to wise up.


I understand that he has given some ground, but not much. The issue is spending, and everyone that has a brain knows that we cannot spend what we have been spending. He just wants to kick that can down the road, and the Republicans don't want to do that.

I personally don't think that the fiscal "cliff" will end up being as bad as they warn, but if it does, I think it will ruin Obama's "legacy". He is the leader, and the one ultimately responsible.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Wabash » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:06 am

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Sorry, but a few percentage points is not a mandate. You can call it a duck if you want, but it is neither a duck nor a mandate.

Conservatives say such things when they lose. When they win by narrow margins they say things like this:

A Mandate To Govern Is A Matter Of Majority

The "mandate'---nonsense has been going on nonstop since election night. Every half-hour, one maven or another declares that George Bush won the election, but no mandate. The insistence on this point is curious, since Bush never asked for a mandate. In fact, he never even presented an agenda. He held a referendum on the status quo and won in a walk.

Bush's only promise was more of the same. And as Eisenhower made clear in titling the first volume of his memoirs, mandates are for change. If you want reform or revolution, you need a mandate. If you promise continuity, you need only a majority.

So why the fuss about mandates? It is a preemptive attack on Bush's legitimacy.When Democrats defiantly declare that they refuse to give Bush the mandate he never asked for, they are not being tautological. They are being acutely political. It a high-sounding way' of saying that Bush may have won on paper, but because he won in a way of which one disapproves, he is not entitled to the full powers of the office.
Congressional Democrats may be in no mood to listen to President Bush. They have the perfect right not to listen. But mandate talk is a subtle way of saying that they have a duty not to listen.
It is a way of saying: We are authorized to resist President Bush not just by the nature of our congressional vote, but also by the nature of his presidential vote, correctly understood.

Incorrectly understood. The founders said nothing about a president needing a mandate in order to exercise his executive functions, only a majority of Electoral College. That was John Kennedy's view, too.

After winning election by the smallest popular margin in history, "he rejected the argument that the country had given him no mandate," wrote Theodore Sorenson, Kennedy aide and sometime Dukakis speechwriter.

"Every election has a winner and a loser, he said in effect ... a margin of only one vote would still be a mandate."


According to the standards laid down by conservatives, Obama has a mandate. Deny it all you want, that doesn't make it so.
Last edited by Wabash on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where is business on the Fiscal Cliff?

Postby Wabash » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:10 am

AsIfYouKnew wrote:

Conservatives have yet to put forth what spending cuts they believe should be put in place to reduce the deficit. They just claim they will support closing loopholes while never detailing which ones, and demand entitlement reform but lack specifics.


I agree that I believe that it won't be that bad. I also believe this will bolster Obama's legacy as a leader as an individual who was willing to make the hard choices despite the inability of the opposition to compromise with the realities of the deficits they helped created.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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