Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress Wages

User avatar
Brooke
Posts: 21580
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 am

Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress Wages

Post by Brooke » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:18 pm

High-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress Wages
April 25, 2013 By Jack Martin

A timely new academic study of hiring practices in the high-tech industry was released by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) on April 24.

Based on extensive data on salaries and hiring practices for foreign and domestic STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) graduates, the researchers found that there is no shortage of domestic graduates, that wages have been flat since about 2004 – belying industry claims of a shortage, and that the growing supply of guestworkers, “…appear to provide firms with access to labor that will be in plentiful supply at wages that are too low to induce a significantly increased supply from the domestic workforce.”

More significant than the issue of employers taking advantage of lower wage foreign workers – and pushing for even more in the Gang of 8 immigration bill (S.744) introduced last week – is the fact that this trend has the effect of discouraging U.S. students from pursuing careers in high-tech jobs. This means that by hiring more foreign workers employers depress the supply of domestic high-tech workers. The cyclical effect is to perpetuate and expand the hiring of foreign workers on the basis of the employer-caused reduction in domestic graduates.
http://immigrationreform.com/2013/04/25 ... ess-wages/
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:08 pm

A "domestic graduate" is anyone who graduates in the United States--a huge percentage of which are foreign students in the STEM fields. So yes, there are plenty of tech graduates because we have a large number of foreign students here on F-1 visas. However, once they graduate they can't work here without an H-1 visa. If they don't work here, then they take that education back to their home country to produce--and thus compete with us.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Brooke
Posts: 21580
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 am

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:41 pm

Fordama wrote:A "domestic graduate" is anyone who graduates in the United States--a huge percentage of which are foreign students in the STEM fields. So yes, there are plenty of tech graduates because we have a large number of foreign students here on F-1 visas. However, once they graduate they can't work here without an H-1 visa. If they don't work here, then they take that education back to their home country to produce--and thus compete with us.

Fordama
How do they compete with us? They should go back to their home countries and help them out of poverty so their people can have decent and humane lifestyles.

The USA is vibrant enough on its own, we don't need to snatch new graduates from other countries when our own graduates and older workers are unemployed. Why haven't you figured that out yet?
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:07 pm

Brooke wrote: How do they compete with us? They should go back to their home countries and help them out of poverty so their people can have decent and humane lifestyles.

The USA is vibrant enough on its own, we don't need to snatch new graduates from other countries ...?
Um, our graduates in STEM are from other countries.

You're still failing to grasp that.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Troglodyte
Posts: 16607
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:12 am

Brooke wrote: How do they compete with us? They should go back to their home countries and help them out of poverty so their people can have decent and humane lifestyles.

The USA is vibrant enough on its own, we don't need to snatch new graduates from other countries when our own graduates and older workers are unemployed. Why haven't you figured that out yet?
The major problem, Brooke, is there are not enough American STEM educated graduates. Most of them are foreign students on F-1 visas.
Those students know they would never get the kind of wages back home, and will take less pay to get a H-1 visa.
You can't blame the companies for taking a more qualified employee at less than the going rate.
I know that Fordie and Paul will scream if you blame that on our education system.. BUT...
I don't suffer from any mental illnesses.. I enjoy them..

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:27 am

Troglodyte wrote: The major problem, Brooke, is there are not enough American STEM educated graduates. Most of them are foreign students on F-1 visas.
Those students know they would never get the kind of wages back home, and will take less pay to get a H-1 visa.
You can't blame the companies for taking a more qualified employee at less than the going rate.
I know that Fordie and Paul will scream if you blame that on our education system.. BUT...
Um, we can't force kids into college majors. It's that pesky "freedom" thing we're always butting heads with.



Here are the Top Ten College Majors according to Princeton Review:

1. Business Administration and Management/Commerce
2. Psychology
3. Nursing
4. Biology/Biological Sciences
5. Education
6. English Language and Literature
7. Economics
8. Communications Studies/Speech Communication and Rhetoric
9. Political Science and Government
10. Computer and Information Sciences

So only two of the ten are STEM related.

Now where I will agree with Trog and the education system is about mathematics education. Every attempt to reform it to match performance in other countries meets with troglodytic cries of "get back to basics!" We're still teaching mathematics from the 18th century with little thought about how mathematics is currently used.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:37 am

That previous post contained information that also counted foreign students.

Here are the most and least popular majors for American students:

ImageIT's positively STEM free when you take out foreign students.

And now what majors are American kids staying away from in droves;

ImageWell, STEM is well represented in that group which American students don't want to study!

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Troglodyte
Posts: 16607
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:34 am

Fordama wrote: Um, we can't force kids into college majors. It's that pesky "freedom" thing we're always butting heads with.

Now where I will agree with Trog and the education system is about mathematics education. Every attempt to reform it to match performance in other countries meets with troglodytic cries of "get back to basics!" We're still teaching mathematics from the 18th century with little thought about how mathematics is currently used.
Basic mathematics hasn't changed since the first number system was created.
Without a firm grasp on that, students have no hope of moving on to the higher math studies. Kinda pointless in fact.. Too many of our graduates can't figure change in the store, but the usual 4th grade educated immigrant can..
I don't suffer from any mental illnesses.. I enjoy them..

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:02 am

Troglodyte wrote: Basic mathematics hasn't changed since the first number system was created.
Without a firm grasp on that, students have no hope of moving on to the higher math studies. Kinda pointless in fact.. Too many of our graduates can't figure change in the store, but the usual 4th grade educated immigrant can..
You're confusing mathematics with arithmetic.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Brooke
Posts: 21580
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 am

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:58 am

Fordama wrote: Um, our graduates in STEM are from other countries.

You're still failing to grasp that.
You failed to understand what I said. I basically said they should go back to their own countries and make them better for their own citizens, which obviously meant that they graduated here.

When you get stuck on the basics then it often takes a long time to get back on-track again, if ever.

Can't you and your like-minded pals ever discuss a topic without looking to boost your self-esteem by insulting the folks here who try everyday to have civil conversations without all the juvenile/playground pushing, shoving, and tripping? I thought that stuff was supposed to stop in 6th or 7th grade. :roll:
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:35 pm

Brooke wrote: You failed to understand what I said. I basically said they should go back to their own countries and make them better for their own citizens, which obviously meant that they graduated here.
And if they leave we will not have enough STEM graduates to keep competitive because not enough American kids want to go into those fields.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Brooke
Posts: 21580
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:51 am

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:48 pm

Fordama wrote: And if they leave we will not have enough STEM graduates to keep competitive because not enough American kids want to go into those fields.

Fordama
Have you asked yourself why American students don't want to go into those fields?
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:42 pm

Brooke wrote:Have you asked yourself why American students don't want to go into those fields?
They're too hard, and they aren't considered that interesting.

We do not value the sciences in the United States as much as they do in other nations these days. In fact, the idiotic Chairman of the House Sciences Committee has just proposed to gut the scientific process in the United States.

Science and math are tough, and we Americans aren't that interested in them any more.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:45 pm

And before you blather about pay...


Image
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:26 pm

And before you blather on about "liberals," please notice that this expansion of visas is strongly supported by very conservative members of Congress.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:27 pm

But this shoud relieve some of your bitterness on this topic:

Image
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

User avatar
Troglodyte
Posts: 16607
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:38 am

Fordama wrote: You're confusing mathematics with arithmetic.
Arguing semantics again instead of the principle?? Here I'll fix it for you..
Students have to be well grounded in arithmetic before they can understand mathematics.
If a student is shaky on addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, they will be very uncomfortable, and shun, algebra, geometry, and trig. Calculus, chemistry, and statistics would be out of the question.
Kids kinda steer clear of what they are not good at..
I don't suffer from any mental illnesses.. I enjoy them..

User avatar
Troglodyte
Posts: 16607
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:46 am

Brooke wrote: You failed to understand what I said. I basically said they should go back to their own countries and make them better for their own citizens, which obviously meant that they graduated here.

When you get stuck on the basics then it often takes a long time to get back on-track again, if ever.
Why should they return to their own countries when they can earn 10 times as much here, even if it below the prevailing wage here? There is also a lack of qualified US students in those fields. A win-win for both the employers and foreign graduates.
As for the "stuck on basics" Fordy is having a hard time admitting that point. :wink:
I don't suffer from any mental illnesses.. I enjoy them..

User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18139
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:30 am

Troglodyte wrote: Arguing semantics again instead of the principle??
No, I'm not. I'm talking about mathematics in general. You are talking about elementary school arithmetic. There's nothing wrong with teaching arithmetic to the very young. Unfortunately we beat it to death until they hate it later in their elementary school years.

Mathematics is about reasoning, not just about counting things.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

not4u13
Posts: 5481
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:00 pm

Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by not4u13 » Wed May 01, 2013 4:58 am

I have routinely cited the annual salary survey of Information Systems professionals as an indicator for job growth in this tech sector. The 2012 study was just released and it since again shows a growth in salary. We continue to see a shortage in this part of the industry despite heavy off shoring and increasing H visas. This is the reason companies such as MS continue to push for more H visas. The workers are highly skilled and available.

As for interest in STEM relates degrees, the data Ford cited mirrors my own experience in talking with HS grads. They just are not interested in higher math. Ironically, I know there are recent engineering grads who struggle to find an engineering related job after earning their degree. The training process begins s after graduation and many companies don't want to invest in training new engineers. They seek those with experience. Sort of a mixed bag I guess, but not a new problem.
Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountain is going home; that wildness is necessity; John Muir
http://www.quotesdaddy.com

Post Reply