Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress Wages

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Wabash
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Wabash » Wed May 01, 2013 6:19 am

Fordama wrote: They're too hard, and they aren't considered that interesting.

We do not value the sciences in the United States as much as they do in other nations these days. In fact, the idiotic Chairman of the House Sciences Committee has just proposed to gut the scientific process in the United States.

Science and math are tough, and we Americans aren't that interested in them any more.

Fordama
All the people I know in the STEM fields were unaffected by the recent recession. One was laid off and was recruited by a rival firm literally the next month.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Wed May 01, 2013 7:18 am

Fordama wrote: No, I'm not. I'm talking about mathematics in general. You are talking about elementary school arithmetic. There's nothing wrong with teaching arithmetic to the very young. Unfortunately we beat it to death until they hate it later in their elementary school years.

Mathematics is about reasoning, not just about counting things.

Fordama
I vividly remember a whole semester of "fun with fractions" waiting for a few of my classmates to grasp the idea. The rest of us were bored and wanted to go on to more interesting stuff. Matter of fact there were many semesters like that with other arithmetic subjects.
That's the education system's downfall, teaching toward the dumbest kid in the classroom.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:20 am

Fordama wrote:And before you blather on about "liberals," please notice that this expansion of visas is strongly supported by very conservative members of Congress.
I am speaking for American workers. I am very well aware that conservatives and liberals do not put American workers first as they should. For some strange reason politicians get caught up in the latest trend and forget who put them in office. Unfortunately, Americans are all too keen on jumping on the latest bandwagon of stupid ideas.

You were all too keen on China's economic rise at the expense of the USA. But, you have changed your mind as of late, isn't that right?

I believe you thought at one time that China would throw off its communist shackles. Didn't turn out that way did it?
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by not4u13 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:14 pm

There is ample evidence to support the notion that America does not have enough citizens trained in one or more of the STEM disciplines. There continues to be a shortage of qualified workers that require STEM skills.

It isn't about depressing wages. It is about fair wages. It is the law of supply and demand. Highly skilled STEM workers are often the subject of bidding wars, inflating wages beyond what is reasonable for the value they provide. They are paid more simply because they can command more, not because the ROI justifies it.
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Brooke
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:12 pm

not4u13 wrote:There is ample evidence to support the notion that America does not have enough citizens trained in one or more of the STEM disciplines. There continues to be a shortage of qualified workers that require STEM skills.
Well then, why don't you produce it?
not4u13 wrote:It isn't about depressing wages. It is about fair wages. It is the law of supply and demand.
It is about depressing wages when politicians are in cahoots with big business lobbyists to change the dynamics of the work place.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Not4u is completely correct.. Our education system hasn't produced the workers trained in the fields our companies need. Us companies would prefer US workers, instead of foreign workers who work here for a few years and then take the skills they learn here back to their home countries.
Today's student want the "easy subjects" in school and enter the work force with a "rock star" mentality.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Parrotpaul » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:45 am

Where is it written that the major function of educating children in the public schools is to train/educate them to work in certain private industries? What ever happened to apprenticeships or other training programs that capitalize on the high school backgrounds of the students they seek? Does the private sector have any responsibility at all in this area? Management training programs took college grads in any area and trained them to the company's specific needs. Methinks the private sector whines too much and does too little to fill its own industrial peoplepower needs.
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Brooke
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:05 am

No Trog, the truth is that American companies prefer to hire cheap overseas workers. There is NO SHORTAGE of STEM workers. It's a scam that goes hand-in-hand with sending American jobs overseas.

I have told you this before, will you please catch up and stop repeating what the big business lobbyists want you to believe? Come on Trog, do your homework!
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by not4u13 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:07 am

STEM skills are not the responsibility of the private sector, but I don't blame academic institutions either. The issue is that there is not enough emphasis on STEM careers. In our country where kids are free to choose their path, we need to make the path to STEM careers more attractive than the long-shot pro athlete career. The lack of ample STEM trained citizens is a failure of society and not just one aspect.

What makes matters worse is what we are competing against. The government of India made significant investments in secondary education and provided significant tax breaks to industry to create demand. Young adults in India that graduate at the top of their class are rock stars to their family and friends. The incentives are huge. There is a great disparity between those who are successful with their education and those who are not.

I am not saying I want those conditions here. I am saying that Maslow was right. Getting an education in STEM is higher on the needs pyramid for the youth in India than it is for the youth here in America. That is a powerful motivator. We, as a society, need to find a motivator that can bring this back into balance if we are ever going to "STEM" the tide.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by not4u13 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:13 am

Brooke wrote:No Trog, the truth is that American companies prefer to hire cheap overseas workers. There is NO SHORTAGE of STEM workers. It's a scam that goes hand-in-hand with sending American jobs overseas.

I have told you this before, will you please catch up and stop repeating what the big business lobbyists want you to believe? Come on Trog, do your homework!
You are the one being scammed. I see it every day and I have even posted several salary studies in the IT sector in the past to prove it to you. That is just the IT sector. Look up the non-profit STEM Advantage (http://www.stemadvantage.org/). There are organizations like this all over the place. Private sector companies are funding them with donations to help build the availability of STEM skills here in the US.

I have a challenge for you Brooke. If you want to help solve the problem, why not Donate to STEM Advantage. You can volunteer your time too. It would be a small but important step in making things better and it would do so much more to help solve the problem than sitting behind your keyboard and complaining about how many visas we issue.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by afan95 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:22 am

not4u13 wrote:STEM skills are not the responsibility of the private sector, but I don't blame academic institutions either. The issue is that there is not enough emphasis on STEM careers. In our country where kids are free to choose their path, we need to make the path to STEM careers more attractive than the long-shot pro athlete career. The lack of ample STEM trained citizens is a failure of society and not just one aspect.

What makes matters worse is what we are competing against. The government of India made significant investments in secondary education and provided significant tax breaks to industry to create demand. Young adults in India that graduate at the top of their class are rock stars to their family and friends. The incentives are huge. There is a great disparity between those who are successful with their education and those who are not.

I am not saying I want those conditions here. I am saying that Maslow was right. Getting an education in STEM is higher on the needs pyramid for the youth in India than it is for the youth here in America. That is a powerful motivator. We, as a society, need to find a motivator that can bring this back into balance if we are ever going to "STEM" the tide.
I believe that motivator is called a parent. Look at how the parents in China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, India, etc value an education and especially one that turns their children into doctors, accountants, and engineers. If your parents at home sit and talk about the value of an education and what it can do for you, the kids follow. If the parents let their kids sit in front of the TV, play video games, text incessantly and rarely be engaged with their kids, it's no coincidence that most of those kids don't have anyone giving them advice on what to do with their lives. Sure there are some kids that have their own motivation, but when the parents are there pointing the direction it helps.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Parrotpaul » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:31 am

Most parents want their kids to be college educated and hold jobs that don't dirty their children's' hands and pay enough to support two grandchildren per kid in a style even better than they enjoyed.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by not4u13 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:32 am

Parents are only one factor. It isn't enough to espouse the values of education. There are so many different educational opportunities that don't include STEM skills. The topic of conversation here is the need for STEM skills and how to motivate our youth to choose them.

I know I said I don't blame academia for this issue, but I also didn't say they had no part in the problem. An earlier post mentioned how students are turned off early from choosing STEM careers by the constant push to do advanced math early. I think that is a factor. How do we make education in STEM skills more attractive. In a country where there is freedom of choice and many options to choose from, how do we do this? The issue is MUCH bigger than parents.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Brooke » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:52 am

The STEM Shortage Is A Myth

The Economic Policy Institute published an informative paper several weeks ago that broke down a lot of the myths around the STEM shortage.

First, let's look at basic economics. When there's a shortage — when demand exceeds supply — the price of a good increases. If there were truly a supply shortage, then, why hasn't the compensation for tech workers increased dramatically?

Even more, were there truly a STEM shortage — were demand for STEM majors to exceed supply — one would expect that unemployment statistics for recent STEM graduates would be outstandingly low.

* 64.5% of computer science majors are working in their major field.
* 18.7% of computer science majors are not working in the field because of pay, promotion or working conditions.
* 11.2% of computer science majors are not working in the field because jobs are not available.
* The remaining 5.6% aren't working in CS because of job location or other factors.

It's the middle two of these four stats that are most concerning.

If Silicon Valley has a shortage of tech workers, why are 11% of CS majors claiming that there weren't jobs available?

Likewise, if there's such a desperate shortage, why is Silicon Valley not keeping compensation on pace with demand, in order to attract the 19% who cite pay or working conditions as a reason they're not working in tech?
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-real ... z2avNQMsRu
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:37 am

Parrotpaul wrote:Where is it written that the major function of educating children in the public schools is to train/educate them to work in certain private industries?
Why else do we have an education system? To kill time until the kids grow up?
What we need is technical and vocational high schools. There are plenty of kids out there who have no interest in going to college. Kids who need to go to work right after HS. Kids who have an idea of what they want to do with their lives. Kids who can't afford the after market trade schools...
Kids need to be given the education to become productive members of society after they leave school, not just dumped out on the street and handed the want ad section of the local paper.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by afan95 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:Most parents want their kids to be college educated and hold jobs that don't dirty their children's' hands and pay enough to support two grandchildren per kid in a style even better than they enjoyed.
You need to get out of the house more.
Either that or realize that the OC isn't real life.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Parrotpaul » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:54 pm

OK...I'm listening. Tell me what the real life is like.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Troglodyte » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:49 pm

Real life is that 10%+ wont finish HS.
Real life is that probably 80% of HS grads won't go to college. and only 2/3rds will finish college.
Real life is that most kids know what their parents do for a living, and figure they will do the same thing because they don't know what other options are out there.
Real life is that there are no after school jobs for the kids to get a taste of working.
Real life is that most of them know when the War of 1812 was fought, some of them can reduce a quadratic equasion and find Canada on a map, but almost none of them know how to find a job, can correctly fill out an employment application, or have any idea how to interview for a job.
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by afan95 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:44 pm

Real life in this day is parents being thankful that their kids just have a job.
Most parents worry that their kids won't be able to afford a home the way they did, that it will always take 2 parents working full-time just to give their grandchildren some of the things they took for granted...like a vacation, living in an area with a good school district, being able to pay for any college.
Real life is parents worrying that their kids won't have the choice to work where they want to live but will have to live where there is work.
Real life is parents giving their kids that college education only to see them not have a job out of college and living at home until they are 30 or so.

If only parents really worried about the things you think they do Paul...
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Re: Hi-Tech Employers Seek More Foreign Workers to Depress W

Post by Fordama » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:03 am

Brooke, C-Sci majors are only one small part of the STEM issue.

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