Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:44 pm

Bick wrote:I'll make it simple for you...does higher labor cost act as an incentive to employ more, or does it act as an incentive to use less of it?
Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

not4u13
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by not4u13 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 am

Wabash wrote:Texas has no Prop. 13 protection until the homeowner is 65. I am purely speculating. I wonder if Prop. 13 is partially to blame for skyrocketing home values. Would a homeowner be so anxious to purchase a home if they thought the property taxes could double overnight? Prop. 13 locks in a rate a taxation. Thereby allowing a person to own the same home and pay a fraction of the taxes of their neighbor while enjoying the same value.
The real estate market here in Texas is very different and I think it does have to do with property taxes. The biggest difference is people buy and sell a lot more frequently. When they need more room, they don't renovate or add on as often. They look for a bigger place and move. Then, when they are ready to downsize, the sell their larger home to a family and move again. It's referred to by many real estate brokers as the 7 year itch. While there are a lot of folks who stay put, its much more common in Texas for people to just sell their homes and move than it was in CA. The reason is that in CA, people want to hold onto their lower tax rate for their home and they can do that if they renovate instead of buying.

Texans are also not nearly as happy as the market increases because not only does their home value increase, but so does their tax obligation.

Another influencing factor is the amount of land and new construction, at least in North Texas (DFW area in particular).

My observations.
Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountain is going home; that wildness is necessity; John Muir
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not4u13
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by not4u13 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:53 am

I find it amusing that people are looking at big moves by corporations such as the FCA plant renovation to build trucks and the Toyota announcement in Alabama as being influenced by the tax changes. That is ludicrous. These companies do not make such long term decisions based on current legislative conditions.

The Toyota-Mazda joint venture and search for a US based plant was announced well before the tax plan. FCA continues to struggle with quality and market share. They have excess capacity. This move to an existing plant is likely related to supply chain costs.

What these companies do though is they make these very public announcements in a way that gains them the most positive public opinion, attempting to ride waves of positive public sentiment. But let's not get caught in that trap here.

Yes, the US jobs to be gained is a very good thing. Let's just not get caught up into believing that these are a result of a change in tax policy.
Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountain is going home; that wildness is necessity; John Muir
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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:02 am

not4u13 wrote:QR_BBPOST My observations.
There is significant research to support your stated anecdotes.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Bick
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Bick » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:10 am

Wabash wrote:Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.
Thanks for the commentary.

Was the question too difficult to answer directly?

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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:28 am

My answer speaks for itself. When the working class has more disposable the economy thrives. There is enough historical data to prove that.

This is a very good read.

The Pitchforks are Coming
The model for us rich guys here should be Henry Ford, who realized that all his autoworkers in Michigan weren’t only cheap labor to be exploited; they were consumers, too. Ford figured that if he raised their wages, to a then-exorbitant $5 a day, they’d be able to afford his Model Ts.
It happened because we reminded the masses that they are the source of growth and prosperity, not us rich guys. We reminded them that when workers have more money, businesses have more customers—and need more employees. We reminded them that if businesses paid workers a living wage rather than poverty wages, taxpayers wouldn’t have to make up the difference. And when we got done, 74 percent of likely Seattle voters in a recent poll agreed that a $15 minimum wage was a swell idea.
During the past three decades, compensation for CEOs grew 127 times faster than it did for workers. Since 1950, the CEO-to-worker pay ratio has increased 1,000 percent, and that is not a typo. CEOs used to earn 30 times the median wage; now they rake in 500 times. Yet no company I know of has eliminated its senior managers, or outsourced them to China or automated their jobs. Instead, we now have more CEOs and senior executives than ever before. So, too, for financial services workers and technology workers. These folks earn multiples of the median wage, yet we somehow have more and more of them.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Bick
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Bick » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:42 am

Must've been the complex nature of the question. Let's try this:

Yes or no...does higher labor cost act as an incentive to employ more?

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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:38 am

If you read the article I posted you would know the answer is "it depends."

At one level it is is disincentive. At another level it is an incentive.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:10 pm

He'd have known it better if you'd articulated it rather than thinking he'd read some article.
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Bick
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Bick » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:56 pm

Wabash wrote:If you read the article I posted you would know the answer is "it depends."

At one level it is is disincentive. At another level it is an incentive.
I'll ask this another way.

Pretend you are a small business owner. The cost of labor (for the same skillset) is mandated higher. Is the incentive now to hire MORE people?

If so, please articulate in your own words how it is.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by MDDad » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:06 pm

Bick, good luck with that. You'll pick up a watermelon seed with a baseball bat before you get Wabash or Fordama to answer a question directly.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:28 pm

Excuse me for cutting in but sometimes I can't help myself.

:iknow:

Big picture, long-term, yes. Small picture, short-term, probably not. But I wouldn't characterize a fair wage or reasonable, sound regulation as overly high hurdles for a business with a good reason to exist. Yes, those things do favor larger corporations, but so do most of the laws and regulations our lovely politicians on both sides of the aisle enact.

I work for a fairly small company. I didn't get any $1,000 bonus. Didn't even get a $20 gift card.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

Bick
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Bick » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:49 pm

Prefer to keep words like fair, reasonable, common sense and politicians out of this, and focus on whether or not something is an incentive...or not.

I think we agree that large corps (500+ emps) can better sustain the higher labor costs, and other regs.

I'm not following how in the long term, higher mandated labor costs is an incentive to hire more people.

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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:05 pm

Yet there are classes of employees that have increased as their wages have gone up.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Professor Fate » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:14 pm

But, just for the sake of argument, did they increase by as much as they would have, had their wages not gone up? No way to tell unless you were in on the decision of how many to hire.
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