Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Fordama » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:19 pm

Professor Fate wrote:Every unskilled illegal alien who comes into California either is unemployed, or takes a job that an unemployed citizen could be getting.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:54 pm

Nice try, but while no one is both lazy AND stealing jobs, theoretically each one of them could be one or the other.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:36 pm

Theoretically. But in reality it's neither.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:14 pm

I disagree. We are still a consumption based economy. The current tax policy has shifted aggregate demand into fewer and fewer individuals.

Other countries have thriving economies with higher rates of taxation.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by MDDad » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:55 pm

Wabash wrote:I didn't know that he has a degree in Econ.

How many Americas have earnings at that level?
How many Americans have earnings at that level is not the issue, Mr. Moving Goalposts. You said SoulPatrol doesn't understand the meaning of a marginal tax rate when it's clear that it's you who doesn't comprehend it's effect. The truth is that a 90% marginal tax rate becomes almost a 90% actual tax rate pretty quickly after about a million in normal taxable income, and SoulPatrol's example of a billion-dollar earner was absolutely correct.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:43 pm

Uhhh...okay.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by SoulPatrol » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:48 pm

Something people in the Occupy Movement (and wabash) don't understand:

Big Government IS Big Business.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:14 pm

Government is about 20% of GDP.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:19 pm

Other than banking reform, I don't remember the Occupy movement asking anything of government. But, like Black Lives Matter, anybody with a Magic Marker could call himself an Occupier, so maybe you caught a different one than I did.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Omar Bongo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:37 pm

SoulPatrol wrote:Something people in the Occupy Movement don't understand:Big Government IS Big Business.
To the contrary, one of their goals is a reduction of the influence of corporations on politics
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by SoulPatrol » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:31 pm

What I'm referring to is their denouncement of big business, in general. Admittedly, they were vague and disjointed in regard to having an overall message.

Meanwhile, look at how wealthy certain politicians tend to get while earning a public servant's salary. More importantly, bigger government means bigger taxes to pay for unsustainable pension plans, bloated bureaucracies, etc. When the bill becomes too high for even the taxes to cover, new fees and fines suddenly appear. This probably sounds familiar.

In my opinion, greater governmental control is never the best solution.

Am I wrong?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Omar Bongo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:08 pm

SoulPatrol wrote:What I'm referring to is their denouncement of big business, in general
It's more a denouncement of the results of unchecked capitalism, namely a grossly unequal distribution of income
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by SoulPatrol » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:25 pm

Can you clarify? Does that mean that businesses should share their income or that they are allowed to legally become too much like robber barons?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:15 am

SoulPatrol wrote: In my opinion, greater governmental control is never the best solution.
CA's energy crisis, the S & L scandal, the housing bubble that burst are all examples of a lack of government control.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:24 am

Elements of the housing bubble could have been avoided with regulation, but the bubble itself couldn't have been avoided by any non-Marxist government.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:14 am

SoulPatrol wrote: Can you clarify? Does that mean that businesses should share their income or that they are allowed to legally become too much like robber barons?
Some numbers from a new report by Oxfam. They're worldwide but ours aren't dissimilar.

- 82% of all wealth generated in the last year went to the top 1%.

- The bottom 50% saw no benefits from growth at all.

- The world’s billionaires saw their fortunes swell by $762 billion in just a year.

- The richest 1% hold more wealth than the whole of the rest of humanity.

And a picture. Again, our numbers are similar. Note that from about the 30th to the 75th-ish percentile, income growth was negative while growth at the top was double to almost triple. But the rich being rich isn't the problem. There's nothing wrong with that. The squeezing of the incomes in the middle and at the bottom is where the problem is. Seriously, revolutions have been fought over less.
rich share of wealth.png
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Wabash » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:49 am

John Q. Public wrote:Elements of the housing bubble could have been avoided with regulation, but the bubble itself couldn't have been avoided by any non-Marxist government.
I disagree.

When negative amortization loans were allowed as a mortgage vehicle the housing market was turned into a Ponzi scheme.

Because of a banking law the state passed under the 1876 Texas Constitution, residents could only borrow against the equity in their home for improvements. Aside from very limited exceptions, cash-out refinancings were prohibited. The only reliable way to get money out of a house was to sell it. A 1997 constitutional amendment allowed closed-end home equity loans—an obligation to repay by a specified date—but the loan plus the primary mortgage could not exceed 80 percent of the value of the home.

They had minimal effects in 2008 when the bubble burst.

Ironically, it was the government interference that Texans claim to despise that saved them from the ravages of the housing bubble that destroyed the housing market in the Southwest.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:13 am

Thank you. Like I said, elements of it could be controlled. Government can't control bubbles, themselves, without controlling prices.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by Bick » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:49 am

John Q. Public wrote: The bottom 50% saw no benefits from growth at all.
Why do you think that is?
John Q. Public wrote: growth at the top was double to almost triple
If guys at the top make $$, does that mean it's done at the expense of the lower incomes?
John Q. Public wrote: The squeezing of the incomes in the middle and at the bottom is where the problem is
What do you mean by "squeezing the incomes", and what is the way to counteract that here in the US?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:06 pm

Not in the order you asked, but....

If guys at the top make $$, does that mean it's done at the expense of the lower incomes?

In some cases, yes; in most cases, no. Most people who've become wealthy deserve every penny. Then there's the Donalds, the corporate raiders and the Walmarts, although I hear Walmart's getting better. But their managers still don't make as much as managers of some smaller types of stores do.

Why do you think that is?
What do you mean by "squeezing the incomes", and what is the way to counteract that here in the US?


I posted a job posting for a forklift driver a while ago that paid just about the same as I made for it 30 years ago (non-union). My first job after I got out of college pays about the same as it did then, and in many cases, much less. I posted a couple years ago that Staples was eliminating the position of Store Manager. I don't know how that worked out, but many mall-type stores don't have them, or it's just a title and the actual management is done by a district manager. Warehousing and truck driving don't pay near what they used to. Many sales jobs haven't kept pace. Lots of examples out there of jobs that once would buy you a modest house but now will get you only half of an apartment.

In some cases technology's been the cause, in some it's been efficiencies, but in many it's been employers saying "take it or leave it" and there being somebody out there who's willing to take it. An example of that one - the last two companies I've worked for have been advertising for part-time help all around the Bay Area for five years (5 years!) without finding any takers - and without raising the pay to a level that somebody in the Bay Area could work for. I guess that means the jobs are kind of marginal, but it also says they're willing to wait for that one person who desperately needs a job.
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