Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

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Wabash
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Wabash » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:14 pm

John Q. Public wrote:Thank you. Like I said, elements of it could be controlled. Government can't control bubbles, themselves, without controlling prices.

Texas has no Prop. 13 protection until the homeowner is 65. I am purely speculating. I wonder if Prop. 13 is partially to blame for skyrocketing home values. Would a homeowner be so anxious to purchase a home if they thought the property taxes could double overnight? Prop. 13 locks in a rate a taxation. Thereby allowing a person to own the same home and pay a fraction of the taxes of their neighbor while enjoying the same value.


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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:20 pm

John Q. Public wrote:Not in the order you asked, but....

If guys at the top make $$, does that mean it's done at the expense of the lower incomes?

In some cases, yes; in most cases, no. Most people who've become wealthy deserve every penny. Then there's the Donalds, the corporate raiders and the Walmarts, although I hear Walmart's getting better. But their managers still don't make as much as managers of some smaller types of stores do.

Why do you think that is?
What do you mean by "squeezing the incomes", and what is the way to counteract that here in the US?


I posted a job posting for a forklift driver a while ago that paid just about the same as I made for it 30 years ago (non-union). My first job after I got out of college pays about the same as it did then, and in many cases, much less. I posted a couple years ago that Staples was eliminating the position of Store Manager. I don't know how that worked out, but many mall-type stores don't have them, or it's just a title and the actual management is done by a district manager. Warehousing and truck driving don't pay near what they used to. Many sales jobs haven't kept pace. Lots of examples out there of jobs that once would buy you a modest house but now will get you only half of an apartment.

In some cases technology's been the cause, in some it's been efficiencies, but in many it's been employers saying "take it or leave it" and there being somebody out there who's willing to take it. An example of that one - the last two companies I've worked for have been advertising for part-time help all around the Bay Area for five years (5 years!) without finding any takers - and without raising the pay to a level that somebody in the Bay Area could work for. I guess that means the jobs are kind of marginal, but it also says they're willing to wait for that one person who desperately needs a job.


If I understand you correctly, you believe:

1) there are some ruthless businesses
2) there are some jobs that are no longer in demand
3) Some businesses would prefer to leave a position unstaffed than to pay more then what they've determined the worth

Is that correct?

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John Q. Public
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby John Q. Public » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:02 am

I think you're over-simplifying but you asked why there hasn't been income growth and I gave some examples. Making excuses for it sort of misses the point.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:56 am

No excuses. Trying to understand your position and your solution to see where specifically we agree or differ.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby John Q. Public » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:45 am

I don't know but I'm wondering if we might eventually have to go to a guaranteed income or "make work" laws. We know that a lot of jobs are on the brink of (near) extinction and that we have no comparable jobs to replace them. And now I read an article from NPR that says that within a decade, half of our jobs will be contract labor, freelance or temp. And they won't pay as well or come with benefits. It's been happening, it will continue happening and it's something we'll have to deal with.

Yes, I realize that guaranteed income would have to be paid for by people or businesses with good incomes and "make work" laws are counter-productive, but the situation is right around the corner and it's something we'll have to find a way around, like it or not.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 am

Do you believe small business / business start-ups are the engine that drives middle income wages?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby John Q. Public » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:25 am

Dunno. Is that a verifiable statistic or some kind of existential dilemma?
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Fordama » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:44 am

What really is a small business? By some reckoning it's companies under 500 employees. That seems like a pretty big "small" business to me.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:45 am

I thought this was common knowledge. This is the first item that showed on a quick Google search.

by Robert Longley
Updated March 06, 2017
What really drives the U.S. economy? No, it is not war. In fact, it is small business -- firms with fewer than 500 employees -- that drives the U.S. economy by providing jobs for over half of the nation's private workforce.

In 2010, there were 27.9 million small businesses in the United States, compared to 18,500 larger firms with 500 employees or more, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.


https://www.thoughtco.com/how-small-bus ... my-3321945

It's salient here in order to determine the course of action that actually makes a positive difference. If you continue down the path of making the hurdles increasingly higher for small business / start-ups per your guaranteed income / make work laws, you will continue to widen the gap.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby John Q. Public » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:16 pm

But what happens when all of the truck drivers are out of work and half of the workforce is part time, temp or casual? It's a dilemma we are going to face, bleeding heart hurdles or not.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:33 am

The same thing when typewriter repair, key punch operators, blacksmiths, lamplighters, 8 track tape specialists, and switchboard operators became obsolete.

What makes it tougher, is when we insist on making it more difficult (costly) for new innovation to emerge from startups.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby John Q. Public » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:44 am

Typewriter repairmen, key punch operators, blacksmiths, lamplighters, 8 track tape specialists, and switchboard operators weren't half of the workforce. Fact is that we're to the point that we can start putting ourselves out of work. Right now it's an ethical issue. If we handle it wrong it will be an economic, public safety and public health issue.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby MDDad » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:24 pm

JQP wrote:Typewriter repairmen, key punch operators, blacksmiths, lamplighters, 8 track tape specialists, and switchboard operators weren't half of the workforce.

No, but farmers were much more than half, and they're almost all gone too. I'll repeat what I've said here before - the day is coming (if it's not already here) when we will never again have enough jobs for everyone. "Working" and "making a living" will no longer be necessarily linked, and we'll have to find inventive new ways for people to "earn" what they need to get by.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:07 pm

What seems to be happening, is a shift to self-employment. I think that's a REAL good thing. Now if we could help the small guys out by lowering the hurdles, they'd be in a better position to compete with the behemoths. Instead, we make it tougher, so only the large survive...and thrive.

And then, we bitch about the income gap inequality.

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Omar Bongo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:13 pm

I think the "we make it tougher" group is different from the "we bitch about income equality" group
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:29 am

Are you saying those that support greater hurdles (higher min wage, increased regulation) are different than those complaining about income equality?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Wabash » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:39 pm

Only if you believe things like higher minimum wage and regulation are all negatives.
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Omar Bongo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:32 pm

I'm saying that the people focused on removing all barriers to ever-increasing profits for large corporations have never been known for expressing their concerns about income equality
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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:25 pm

Wabash wrote:Only if you believe things like higher minimum wage and regulation are all negatives.


I'll make it simple for you...does higher labor cost act as an incentive to employ more, or does it act as an incentive to use less of it?

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Re: Fiat Chrysler Moving Ram Plant from Mexico to Michigan

Postby Bick » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:30 pm

Omar Bongo wrote:Source of the post I'm saying that the people focused on removing all barriers to ever-increasing profits for large corporations have never been known for expressing their concerns about income equality


You realize that the large corporations actually support higher min wage / regulations, right? Squeezes out the smaller businesses.

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