When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

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Wabash
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When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Wabash » Wed May 16, 2012 8:51 am

Link

Excerpt:
Some of Trinity’s eyebrow-raising expenses, as identified by Guinn, included stays at the Ritz Carlton in New York: “One control party’s room dated 11/27/09 incurred $10,616.52 in charges for a 3 night stay at an average of $1538/night in charges. Another control party’s room dated 6/20/10 incurred $16,432.42 in charges for 4 nights at an average of $4,108/night in charges (note the base room rate was $3737/night including taxes and fees).”

There was also a stay at the W Hotel in New York, where lodging and in room charges were $984.67 per day for a three-day stay (the Internal Revenue Service‘s per-diem for business travelers in New York City is $360 per day, Guinn points out); and there were excessive hotel phone bills at the Portofino Hotel Orlando on many occasions. “While the calls may have had a business purpose, a cell phone should likely have been used to avoid this excessive expense,” Guinn wrote.
Somehow I have to believe this is not what Christ had in mind.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by 18echo » Wed May 16, 2012 9:59 am

Matthew 7: 1-5.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by John Q. Public » Wed May 16, 2012 10:23 am

I sat at a table next to some TV preachers at lunch once. I don't know any of them's names but my friend and I both recognized all three of them. When one of them congratulated another one on the new mansion he'd bought in Florida, he said that God had blessed him with the ability to buy it. So, judging by that, I can imagine what Trinity's response would be.

No, no idea what they were doing eating in a place I could afford.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Parrotpaul » Wed May 16, 2012 10:32 am

John Q. Public wrote:I sat at a table next to some TV preachers at lunch once. I don't know any of them's names but my friend and I both recognized all three of them. When one of them congratulated another one on the new mansion he'd bought in Florida, he said that God had blessed him with the ability to buy it. So, judging by that, I can imagine what Trinity's response would be.

No, no idea what they were doing eating in a place I could afford.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by GOODave » Wed May 16, 2012 2:34 pm

Wabash wrote:Link

Excerpt:



Somehow I have to believe this is not what Christ had in mind.
This would be hilariously funny if it didn't show how absolutely clueless the poster is.

Start with the thread title: when do Christians condemn folks like these? Oh, we'll, ALL THE FRIGGIN' TIME. TBN is constantly drawing fire from conservative Christian and liberal Christian groups and individuals for their extra ant expenditures and recently suffered a split between Paul and Jan and members of their OWN FAMILY (when paul canned his son-in-law...I think it was). Geminy, open your eyes for just a moment, I promise it will only hurt a minute as you are educated.

The Register, in particular, is always running these stories about them.

As for whether or not "this" is what Christ had in mind, I'm likewise pretty sure you have no idea what He intended.

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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Red » Wed May 16, 2012 3:08 pm

GOODave wrote:This would be hilariously funny if it didn't show how absolutely clueless the poster is.

Start with the thread title: when do Christians condemn folks like these? Oh, we'll, ALL THE FRIGGIN' TIME. TBN is constantly drawing fire from conservative Christian and liberal Christian groups and individuals for their extra ant expenditures and recently suffered a split between Paul and Jan and members of their OWN FAMILY (when paul canned his son-in-law...I think it was). Geminy, open your eyes for just a moment, I promise it will only hurt a minute as you are educated.

The Register, in particular, is always running these stories about them.

As for whether or not "this" is what Christ had in mind, I'm likewise pretty sure you have no idea what He intended.
I have condemned their actions years ago.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Parrotpaul » Wed May 16, 2012 3:49 pm

"If you send us money, you will be rewarded in the future." Seems as if you namedrop Jesus, you can make a whole lot of money.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by SoMelo » Wed May 16, 2012 3:54 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:"If you send us money, you will be rewarded in the future." Seems as if you namedrop Jesus, you can make a whole lot of money.
Well that's how the Catholic Church acquired their great wealth :shrug:

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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Parrotpaul » Wed May 16, 2012 3:58 pm

SoMelo wrote: Well that's how the Catholic Church acquired their great wealth :shrug:
Terrific sales staff and front men.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by GOODave » Wed May 16, 2012 4:01 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:"If you send us money, you will be rewarded in the future." Seems as if you namedrop Jesus, you can make a whole lot of money.
Duh... Then don't send them money!

:shrug:

How difficult is that to figure out?

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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by afan95 » Wed May 16, 2012 5:08 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:"If you send us money, you will be rewarded in the future." Seems as if you namedrop Jesus, you can make a whole lot of money.
Sounds like a politician.

You should know that the people who take $$$ from others in the name of Jesus will have to answer for that. The people who donate it won't.
There's your answer Wabash.
Nobody really has to come out and condemn them; they've condemned themselves.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Wabash » Wed May 16, 2012 5:17 pm

afan95 wrote: Sounds like a politician.

You should know that the people who take $$$ from others in the name of Jesus will have to answer for that. The people who donate it won't.
There's your answer Wabash.
Nobody really has to come out and condemn them; they've condemned themselves.
The only problem afan is these folks don't pay taxes. Their revenue stream of tithings is tax deductible, and clerics enjoy the parsonage exemption.

So those of us paying our taxes as dutiful citizens are subsidizing their lifestyles.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by afan95 » Wed May 16, 2012 5:54 pm

Wabash wrote: The only problem afan is these folks don't pay taxes. Their revenue stream of tithings is tax deductible, and clerics enjoy the parsonage exemption.

So those of us paying our taxes as dutiful citizens are subsidizing their lifestyles.
Wabash, there's a lot of non-profits that are non-religious that you subsidize and do all sorts or wrongdoing; the biggest one being our government...I don't like the idea that my tax money goes to a lot of things that I don't believe in or is poorly spent. But I have no choice because I can't tell the government where I don't want my money to go to.

And all the more reason why these people will be accountable to their Maker..."render to Caesar what is Caesar's..." or in this case, our government.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Wabash » Wed May 16, 2012 6:02 pm

afan95 wrote:
Wabash, there's a lot of non-profits that are non-religious that you subsidize and do all sorts or wrongdoing; the biggest one being our government...I don't like the idea that my tax money goes to a lot of things that I don't believe in or is poorly spent. But I have no choice because I can't tell the government where I don't want my money to go to.

And all the more reason why these people will be accountable to their Maker..."render to Caesar what is Caesar's..." or in this case, our government.
I agree the government spends on things I don't like either. I have the ability to influence those priorities via the ballot box. I don't have that ability to do that with charitable organizations. I would do away with tax deductions for charities completely. And to that end, I don't claim deductions on my charitable giving for that reason.
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by GOODave » Thu May 17, 2012 4:18 am

Wabash wrote: The only problem afan is these folks don't pay taxes. Their revenue stream of tithings is tax deductible, and clerics enjoy the parsonage exemption.

So those of us paying our taxes as dutiful citizens are subsidizing their lifestyles.
No you're not.

The money you pay in taxes doesn't go anywhere near them: That's part of the deal. You're subsidizing the government's programs with your taxes and they are not (in most cases).

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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by Notorious » Sun May 20, 2012 5:01 am

GOODave wrote: Duh... Then don't send them money!

:shrug:

How difficult is that to figure out?
How rich is too rich Dave? This is a big reason why i think many less get into Heaven than most Christians think.

Jesus was pretty much a free willing hippie, yet it seems that material things mean more to humans because they get things they don't need.

I will preface your response by saying, yes I know you don't know how God thinks/judges etc. I just want your opinion on it as a man of faith and I think reasonable means? (I don't know on the last one just assuming, I know you work in insurance).
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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by GOODave » Sun May 20, 2012 5:16 pm

Notorious wrote: How rich is too rich Dave? This is a big reason why i think many less get into Heaven than most Christians think.

Jesus was pretty much a free willing hippie, yet it seems that material things mean more to humans because they get things they don't need.

I will preface your response by saying, yes I know you don't know how God thinks/judges etc. I just want your opinion on it as a man of faith and I think reasonable means? (I don't know on the last one just assuming, I know you work in insurance).
I think probably "sufficient" is different to my needs than it is to your needs. Refer back to Jesus' narrative about the vineyard owner in Matthew 20. Essentially, he paid the guys hired late in the afternoon the exact same day's wages as he paid those that showed up first thing in the morning. When the early birds complained, the vineyard owner's response was "hey, it's my money, what's it to you if I want to pay them the same as I paid you? Also, did I short change you at all? Did I give you what I promised to give you?

So I put the questions to you (and then I'll give you my opinions):

What's it to you what a given preacher makes? I COMPLETELY understand if the guy is cheating people or lying to them or some other manner of malfeasance, in those cases, lock him up as far as I'm concerned. But by and large, Scripture teaches a worker is worth the wages he is able to command and it doesn't reduce my wages at all that such and thus preacher makes more than I do. My employer pays me what they agreed to pay me (and, to be quite honest, I make almost twice what my pastor makes ... and definitely more than twice what our associate pastors make so that's not a fair analogy, really).

So let's take Rick Warren for example (I have no idea how much he makes), so he gets his pastor's salary whatever that is, but he also has a ton of cash rolling in for his speaking engagements and the books he writes so I think it's safe to say the man is comfortable. Is that unfair JUST because he's a preacher? Well, like I said, I don't know how much he makes. NOWHERE in the Bible does it stipulate that to be a Christian, you have to dress in robes and walk from town to town living off the largesse of others, without a penny to your name. ON the other hand, no one said preachers should be millionaires, either.

I do believe some of these guys will be held accountable to God, Himself, when they stand before Him at the judgement. Some of these guys (Oral Roberts comes to mine) will, in my opinion, have to stand before the Creator of the Universe and justify how he spent God's money.

The Bible tells us to support our pastors, and to give to widows and orphans, and to build His church (not necessarily the building we call church, but "His Church," universal.

So, all that to say, I don't know what is sufficient for each individual pastor, but I know what is sufficient for our pastors because I'm on the board and we've researched it both through our community and through our denomination and, believe me, they will all have to save for a VERY long time before any of them becomes a millionaire (in fact, up until 3 or 4 years ago, I was insisting that the board raise our pastor's salaries so their wives didn't have to work outside the home... but that's another story).

I'm sure there are preachers out there who are phonies and charlatans, but they don't have to answer to me, though they definitely WILL answer to God because we all have to.

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Re: When do Christians Condemn Folks Like These?

Post by GOODave » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:25 am

This pastor answers your question pretty well:

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