Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

LanceSterling
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by LanceSterling » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:04 am

Art. 1 ... After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.
Can someone explain to me the reason for the rule?

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Zebra
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by Zebra » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:19 am

LanceSterling wrote:
Can someone explain to me the reason for the rule?
I don't know for sure, but my guess would be to reduce chance of a deception play like the old "sleeper play", where the WR hides out on their sideline after a play hoping to be left uncovered. The way the old play was run is now illegal.
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THETRUTH
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by THETRUTH » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:48 am

Zebra wrote:
I don't know for sure, but my guess would be to reduce chance of a deception play like the old "sleeper play", where the WR hides out on their sideline after a play hoping to be left uncovered. The way the old play was run is now illegal.

My guess would be that it wasn't because of trick plays, but rather it was instituted to slow the game down. As no huddle offenses became more popular wr began to join the play just in time for the snap from the sideline. It was like canadian football, but the wr was set in motion from the sideline never giving the defense the time to identify each player before the snap of the ball.

I do have a question for you though. What is your thought process in determining if a ball carriers forward progress has been stopped in relationship to the player changing directions and goes backwards in an attempt to gain more yardage and escape tacklers?

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Zebra
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by Zebra » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:58 am

THETRUTH wrote:

My guess would be that it wasn't because of trick plays, but rather it was instituted to slow the game down. As no huddle offenses became more popular wr began to join the play just in time for the snap from the sideline. It was like canadian football, but the wr was set in motion from the sideline never giving the defense the time to identify each player before the snap of the ball.

I do have a question for you though. What is your thought process in determining if a ball carriers forward progress has been stopped in relationship to the player changing directions and goes backwards in an attempt to gain more yardage and escape tacklers?

I agree with the above also TRUTH. That is definatley to not give an advantage to the offense. It also helps us Zebras in counting the players before the snap. Too many players after the snap is a 15 yarder where if we catch it before the snap it's only 5 yards.

We have to use our judgement on whether the player (ballcarrier) is in control of his body or the defense has him. If the BC's feet are off the ground or the BC has given himself up, it's an easy call.
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Zebra
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Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by Zebra » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:16 pm

Here's one for the weekend. This happens to me all the time and I've become an expert on this foul and enforcement ...

One note ... In my carreer, I've called more Offensive PI (12) than Defensive PI (8) on my flank.

Second and 18 for team A from its own 10 yardline. A1’s legal forward pass
intended for eligible A2 is incomplete with B3 covering. While arguing that A2
was guilty of pass interference, team B’s coach curses the line judge and is
flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. Team A accepts the penalty.

a. It will be second and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
b. It will be third and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
c. It will be first and 10 for team A from its own 25 yardline.


Show your work ...
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not4u13
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by not4u13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:33 pm

Zebra wrote:Here's one for the weekend. This happens to me all the time and I've become an expert on this foul and enforcement ...

One note ... In my carreer, I've called more Offensive PI (12) than Defensive PI (8) on my flank.

Second and 18 for team A from its own 10 yardline. A1’s legal forward pass
intended for eligible A2 is incomplete with B3 covering. While arguing that A2
was guilty of pass interference, team B’s coach curses the line judge and is
flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. Team A accepts the penalty.

a. It will be second and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
b. It will be third and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
c. It will be first and 10 for team A from its own 25 yardline.


Show your work ...
B.

Play was dead when flag was thrown. Down was completed. It moves to third down before the flag. Then march off the 15 yard penalty. Third and 3 from the 25.

What I sometimes get confused on with this though is whether or not unsportsmanlike, which was the call here, is an automatic first down by HS rules.
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LanceSterling
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by LanceSterling » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:47 pm

Team B’s coach curses the line judge and is flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct.
This is because ref's in FB like BB ref's and their union think they are the focus of the game not the players.

Answer D

Promotion to college coaching for HS coach.

We have to stop the ref's hubris sometime.

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Notorious
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by Notorious » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:24 pm

LanceSterling wrote:
This is because ref's in FB like BB ref's and their union think they are the focus of the game not the players.

Answer D

Promotion to college coaching for HS coach.

We have to stop the ref's hubris sometime.
I hear this all the time - the refs want to be the focus of the game, they want to make it about themselves.

BS. I've never seen a ref do this. Sure I've seen refs make terrible calls, and I've seen terribles refs be terrible throughout their careers, but I've never for once thought they were doing it for some sort of publicity. I think it's not just ridiculous but childish to think another human being wants to be the star of a high school football game.

It's really not that important, and I have never seen a ref actually do it.
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Zebra
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by Zebra » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Notorious wrote: I hear this all the time - the refs want to be the focus of the game, they want to make it about themselves.

BS. I've never seen a ref do this. Sure I've seen refs make terrible calls, and I've seen terribles refs be terrible throughout their careers, but I've never for once thought they were doing it for some sort of publicity. I think it's not just ridiculous but childish to think another human being wants to be the star of a high school football game.

It's really not that important, and I have never seen a ref actually do it.
I wrote the same thing and then saw your post .. well said.
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Old School
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by Old School » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:06 pm

I agree with Noto, I have never seen a HS ref wanting to be part of the game...I seen ref's with big ego's but that is no different than the rest of society....so do some don't
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SOCTE
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by SOCTE » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:37 pm

C - First Down!!!

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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by SoMelo » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:28 pm

B

LanceSterling
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by LanceSterling » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:05 pm

I wrote the same thing and then saw your post .. well said.
You do know why players argue with ref's don't you?


For the next call.

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UniDad
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by UniDad » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:50 pm

Zebra wrote:
I wrote the same thing and then saw your post .. well said.
Wow. I don't wish to take this thread into a direction that is all-too-common in this forum ( :slapfight: ), but I have to add a comment or two or three or four.

1.) Just because Noto has "never seen a ref do this" does not mean that it doesn't happen.

2.) Just because Zebra is a good guy and has never done it does not mean that it doesn't happen.

3.) This issue is (hopefully) not about some individual ref or an entire crew "doing it for some sort of publicity" or wanting "to be the star of a high school football game". This (admittedly rare) situation manifests itself by way of flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag (you get the idea) being thrown for every little ticky-tack "violation of the rules" that some ref or crew can conjure up.

I have not seen it at the High School Varsity level. I have seen it at the JV/Frosh/Youth levels a number of times. While I cannot with certainty ascribe a motive to such behavior, I (and others) simply say that the ref and/or crew believes that the game revolves around them, and not the players.

Argue the motives if you must, but you simply cannot say that it doesn't happen. It does. Not often, but any time more than none is far too often.
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by UniDad » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:14 pm

Zebra wrote:Here's one for the weekend. This happens to me all the time and I've become an expert on this foul and enforcement ...

One note ... In my carreer, I've called more Offensive PI (12) than Defensive PI (8) on my flank.

Second and 18 for team A from its own 10 yardline. A1’s legal forward pass
intended for eligible A2 is incomplete with B3 covering. While arguing that A2
was guilty of pass interference, team B’s coach curses the line judge and is
flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. Team A accepts the penalty.

a. It will be second and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
b. It will be third and three for team A from its own 25 yardline.
c. It will be first and 10 for team A from its own 25 yardline.


Show your work ...
Answer: B

Dead ball foul. Third down. 15-yard penalty for Unsportsmanlike Conduct takes the ball to A's 25 yard line. Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties are the same for players and non-players.

In High School, automatic first downs are awarded only for: Roughing the snapper/holder/kicker/passer; or Defensive PI
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Notorious
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by Notorious » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:30 am

UniDad wrote:
Wow. I don't wish to take this thread into a direction that is all-too-common in this forum ( :slapfight: ), but I have to add a comment or two or three or four.

1.) Just because Noto has "never seen a ref do this" does not mean that it doesn't happen.

2.) Just because Zebra is a good guy and has never done it does not mean that it doesn't happen.

3.) This issue is (hopefully) not about some individual ref or an entire crew "doing it for some sort of publicity" or wanting "to be the star of a high school football game". This (admittedly rare) situation manifests itself by way of flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag after flag (you get the idea) being thrown for every little ticky-tack "violation of the rules" that some ref or crew can conjure up.

I have not seen it at the High School Varsity level. I have seen it at the JV/Frosh/Youth levels a number of times. While I cannot with certainty ascribe a motive to such behavior, I (and others) simply say that the ref and/or crew believes that the game revolves around them, and not the players.

Argue the motives if you must, but you simply cannot say that it doesn't happen. It does. Not often, but any time more than none is far too often.
I can certainly argue that it doesn't happen. Just because refs are bad, and make poor calls or call a game extremely tight does not mean they're doing it to be stars of a high school football game, much less a freshman game. There's like 12 people at freshman games, why would anyone want to be a star of that?

You know what is happening? Inexperienced refs are showing just what they are, inexperienced. Or perhaps they're just poor officials at that point in their career. Just because someone is flag happy does not mean they're trying to be the stars. There's no way to even determine that that is their motive unless one of them just flat out admits it. Just because "you know that's what they're doing" doesn't make it true.
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not4u13
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by not4u13 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:43 am

UniDad wrote:
Argue the motives if you must, but you simply cannot say that it doesn't happen. It does. Not often, but any time more than none is far too often.
The condition you described is something I have seen as well, but I do think it is improper to ascribe any sort of motive to it. There could be any number of reasons why too many flags get thrown. One could be ego, but it could also be inexperience or improper training. We want refs to make good judgement calls, based on our judgement. That isn't going to happen. In an extreme case where every second or third play a flag is thrown, it becomes very frustrating for everyone, including the ref. Ask them about it and they'll more than likely say that they only throw a flag when they see a reason to do so. The implication is that the kids on the field need to be more disciplined.

I have only reffed a few games, preseason scrimmage type games where there generally are no officials. I am not trained. I remember one case where there was a hold right in front of me. It was minor in my view. The wide receiver was heading around a defender and just ran past them. The inexperienced defender reached out and got some of the jersey and held on for a couple of steps before realizing what he had done and let go. In my judgement this action was incidental and did not impede the progress of the wide receiver. No flag. The pass was long, just beyond the grasp of the receiver. Coach came out to talk to me. Asked me why I didn't call the obvious hold. I explained that in my view (above) and further told him that it was my job to ensure that the rules were enforced in a fair and equitable manner. If I had called THAT hold, I would have to throw flags all the time.

My point is that at the lower levels when kids are still learning the game they make a lot more mistakes. They are not always well informed of the rules and flags can get thrown more often. Whether or not they should be thrown is a judgement call. The motivation of such is something we just can't know, but I seriously doubt it has anything at all to do with ego.
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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by LanceSterling » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:13 am

Anyone that has played a sport with a ref or umpire for any length of time has come across this once or twice.

Maybe not as much in the OC due to the more relaxed life style but there are parts of this country where HS FB is king and ref's are royalty and this stuff goes on more then anyone likes to admit.

The best player I ever saw intimate a ref was Michael Jordan when the ref's in the NBA started unionizing and thinking they ran the game. He would put them back in their place.

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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day

Post by pick4six » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:59 am

Yeah, I have to agree that this happens as well, although it is rare. I have seen it on the football field, but I see it way more often on the hardwood. Usually it starts/happens after a coach gives the ref an earful, then the official calls something ticky-tac that hasn't been called all game or he lets something go for the other team.

I personally do not think it is the refs intention of "being a part of the game" before kick-off or tip-off. However, as the game goes on, when the official's calls are being influenced by a personal dislike for something the coach has said to them, then they are now directly making themselves part of the game in a very negative way.

When it's all said and done, coaches need to question calls and ask for explinations in the right ways and officials need to realize that there is going to be some strong emotion shown by players/coaches because of the amount of time/dedication/sacrifice put into their craft.
Last edited by pick4six on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zebra's Rule Question of the Day #3

Post by UniDad » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:21 am

Notorious wrote:

I can certainly argue that it doesn't happen. Just because refs are bad, and make poor calls or call a game extremely tight does not mean they're doing it to be stars of a high school football game, much less a freshman game. There's like 12 people at freshman games, why would anyone want to be a star of that?

You know what is happening? Inexperienced refs are showing just what they are, inexperienced. Or perhaps they're just poor officials at that point in their career. Just because someone is flag happy does not mean they're trying to be the stars. There's no way to even determine that that is their motive unless one of them just flat out admits it. Just because "you know that's what they're doing" doesn't make it true.
:eh?:

The art of Reading Comprehension has been in serious decline over the past few decades.
This issue is (hopefully) not about some individual ref or an entire crew "doing it for some sort of publicity" or wanting "to be the star of a high school football game".
The reason(s) for being "flag-happy" may well be inexperience and/or incompetence, but all I said was that observers often catagorize this behavior (rightly or wrongly) as the officiating crew believing that they are more important than the game.

Period.

Also, please do not put statements in "quotes" that your counterpart has never stated. [-X
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