The value of the CIF

Luca
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The value of the CIF

Post by Luca »

There is a reason the CIF exists. If you're wondering what high school sports would look like if the CIF didn't exist, think "high school basketball," with 2 or 3 local programs that monopolize the playoffs and tournaments etc....... Club programs affiliated with a high school as opposed to being an actual high school team in the normal sense of the word. It was never the purpose of high school sports to provide a springboard for a handful of renegade programs to showcase themselves by skirting the existing rules.

We all talk about our "rights" to attend and play at one school or another but no such right exists. I cannot simply send my kids to Los Alamitos or to Newport Harbor to enroll, let alone play whatever sport I would like. "Desire" does not automatically translate into "rights." There is no "right" to play high school sports any more than there is a right to be a starter. There are reasons we have restrictions and they are so practical as to hardly need reiterating.

The purpose of high school athletics is to give high school kids a chance to compete against each other, learn the inherent lessons of sports and represent their high schools and sometimes their communities. If we allow the overriding focus to become the individual athletes/parents and what they perceive as the maximization of their visibility, that will come at the cost of a level playing field for the 98% of the athletes who do not transfer freely and seek to make the sport their pedestal.

Because we put the emphasis on the greater good rather than the demands of the few, there will always be those who feel who feel slighted and believe that their rights are somehow violated. That is unfortunate but that is also inevitable. Maybe that's a lesson that both the kids and their parents should learn. Luca
Taco
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Taco »

Luca wrote:There is a reason the CIF exists. If you're wondering what high school sports would look like if the CIF didn't exist, think "high school basketball," with 2 or 3 local programs that monopolize the playoffs and tournaments etc....... Club programs affiliated with a high school as opposed to being an actual high school team in the normal sense of the word. It was never the purpose of high school sports to provide a springboard for a handful of renegade programs to showcase themselves by skirting the existing rules.

We all talk about our "rights" to attend and play at one school or another but no such right exists. I cannot simply send my kids to Los Alamitos or to Newport Harbor to enroll, let alone play whatever sport I would like. "Desire" does not automatically translate into "rights." There is no "right" to play high school sports any more than there is a right to be a starter. There are reasons we have restrictions and they are so practical as to hardly need reiterating.

The purpose of high school athletics is to give high school kids a chance to compete against each other, learn the inherent lessons of sports and represent their high schools and sometimes their communities. If we allow the overriding focus to become the individual athletes/parents and what they perceive as the maximization of their visibility, that will come at the cost of a level playing field for the 98% of the athletes who do not transfer freely and seek to make the sport their pedestal.

Because we put the emphasis on the greater good rather than the demands of the few, there will always be those who feel who feel slighted and believe that their rights are somehow violated. That is unfortunate but that is also inevitable. Maybe that's a lesson that both the kids and their parents should learn. Luca
+1 =D> Taco
ancient
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by ancient »

Luca,

How much better sports would contribute to building good character in our youth if everyone shared your perspective and had your wisdom. Thanks for stating it so well.
LanceSterling
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by LanceSterling »

ancient wrote:Luca,

How much better sports would contribute to building good character in our youth if everyone shared your perspective and had your wisdom. Thanks for stating it so well.
A "kid" is a baby billy goat. Human beings have children.
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

So basically the CIF can pick and choose what they approve based on THEIR athletic motivations.

Gotcha.
Luca
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca »

Just as a CHP chooses which of 10 simultaneously speeding cars he's going to pull over.

Just as Harvard's admissions committee chooses which of 5 competing high school geniuses they will accept.

Just as a linesman decides which of 4 holding calls on every single play he's going to flag.

Just as you will decide which of 142 posts of varying obnoxiousness for the day you will delete.

We live in a world of infinite variability and gradations. But we can govern only by clearly stated rules. Somebody has to make the judgment calls and nobody's going to agree with all of them and that's the way it has always been and always will be. I still think I should have been accepted at Stanford.

If you can come up with a mechanism that infallibly determines which transfers are from legitimate need and which are athletically motivated then I'd suggest you contact the CIF and clude them in. The alternative is to have HSFB turn into HS basketball at which point I'll call it a day for high school sports. Luca
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

Why turn this into a holding call when it could be a false start?

Get rid of the athletically motivated language and enforce residency vehemently.
Luca
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca »

I don't understand. What would be the advantage of that? Luca
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

Luca wrote:I don't understand. What would be the advantage of that? Luca
Black and white.

Did the whole family move or not?

Quit guessing motivation.
OldMan
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by OldMan »

Luca I have always enjoyed your posts and I will concede that you are the smartest guy in the room. That being said I have to agree with greek on this one, and MDDad will be here soon also.

The athletic motivation ineligibility trump card/rule is IMO one of the most subjective and capriciously applied rules I can imagine. It gives the CIF the right to treat similar situations differently and there is no doubt in my mind it has been used to favor some and punish others. The CIF is both the judge and jury. For them to even suggest independent objectivity is to deny the reality that we all have built in prejudices and favorites, nowhere moreso than in youth sports in the communities in which we live, and in this case the CIF office is right downtown Los Al. And let's repeat and acknowledge again one simple fact - every transfer involving any student/athlete is by deductive logic athletically motivated, at least in part, so under current rule there should be no transferees deemed eligible within the CIF boundaries.

I also disagree with your contention that without heavy rulemaking and policing by the CIF, dynasties will rule without check, to the detriment of all others. Programs and coaches come and go, and are up and down based upon many factors, and the power programs of one year or decade do not remain the same. Student/athletes and families go through ups and downs, and can be hugely impacted - either positively or negatively - by coaches good and bad - surely you have seen or heard of individual cases of this - and part of the American way is the freedom to change up a bad situation for one's self improvement. It could literally save a young athlete's life to get out of a bad situation at one school and find success at another. I think all of our children should be able to play where they/their parents want.

I am not quite an anarchist however. Rules should prevent outright recruiting and undue influence, and mid-season transfers (to prevent piling on to win a championship), but except for that I say they play where they want, as long as the respective school districts agree to the student transfers under their usual and customary terms. Let freedom ring!
Luca
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca »

atgreek wrote:Black and white.

Did the whole family move or not?

Quit guessing motivation.

No matter how much you try to fine tune the rules, someone will be able to manipulate them and distort the whole system. When you say "enforce residency vehemently", how do you propose to do that? One of my neighbors sold his home for about $4 million a few years ago and rented an apartment for a few months in Ladera so that his kid could play at Tesoro before they bought a new house in Monarch Bay. It was an obvious athletic transfer, but they did move.

Just because people move doesn't mean it wasn't an athletic transfer. You are kidding yourself if you think you can write the rules so precisely that they can't be circumvented. The rules may be black and white but they won't yield the intended effect. You have to allow for common sense judgment and you can't eliminate the need for it.

OldMan, of course the CIF is the judge and jury. That's the way it was intended. Who else should be the judge, Coaches McKnight or Johnson? What you object to is what you believe is capricious use of the athletic motivation rule by biased CIF officials. In that event, the problem isn't the rule, it's the way individuals are applying it. That can be dealt with. But to claim that we should do away with the concept of disallowing athletically motivated transfers undermines the entire system. I disagree that every transfer is athletically motivated.

If you doubt the results of abolishing these rules, you have only to look at high school basketball. It's like arguing with people who think that the US government should continue borrowing and spending and expanding government programs. You look at them and say "Haven't you seen what's happening in Greece and Spain? This has already been tried before and we don't have to guess what's going to happen."

Of course coaches come and go. One day McKnight and Johnson will retire and their 2 or 3 decades long club team dynasties might pass to another program for a few decades. This is not what I call competitive equity. If there are a handful of athletes here and there who feel their lives are negatively impacted by a coach, that is unfortunate but there are more important issues at hand and that is no reason to put the entire high school sports system at risk just for their perceived benefit. We don't shaft 98% of the kids because 2% feel their lives are hugely impacted and insist on playing wherever they want to. That's not how colleges work, that's not how the pros work that has never been how high schools work. You do not have a "right" to play high school sports wherever you choose.

My father used to have a saying that "When you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember that your initial intent was to drain the swamp." These days when we are arguing about athletically motivated transfers and bogus relocations and interpretations of undue influence perhaps we should refocus on the core purpose and value of high school sports. It is not to maximize the chances of a given athlete to be seen by college recruiters. It is not to allow a prima donna father to relive his youth. It is an extension of the high school experience and was never meant to replace it. Just because some have their priorities reversed does not mean that the system is somehow obsolete. Luca
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

If they're willing to give up a 4 million dollar house and live in an apartment, let them play.
jjirsa78
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by jjirsa78 »

atgreek wrote:If they're willing to give up a 4 million dollar house and live in an apartment, let them play.
What if it's a family without the same means to move? They get stuck because they're unable to afford to move on a whim?

I think it's important to remind people that the rules exist because the primary purpose of high school isn't, contrary to popular belief, football. High school is for learning, not athletics. Allowing kids to pick up and move for athletic purposes disrupts learning. The members, which are appointed by the school board, which are elected by the parents and students, have determined (rightly) that transferring to play sports at a different school is worth preventing. There are dozens of reasons why this is true, and a handful of reasons why the enforcement sucks (some complain that it's difficult to prove intent; others point out that it's perfectly legal to transfer to other schools to participate in non-athletic extra-curricular activities, etc).
Bick
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Bick »

OldMan wrote: The athletic motivation ineligibility trump card/rule is IMO one of the most subjective and capriciously applied rules I can imagine.

I am not quite an anarchist however. Rules should prevent outright recruiting and undue influence, and mid-season transfers (to prevent piling on to win a championship), but except for that I say they play where they want, as long as the respective school districts agree to the student transfers under their usual and customary terms. Let freedom ring!
I'm w/ Luca Brasi on this. It really wouldn't matter how the rules were wordsmithed, there would always be folks trying to find a loophole or the gray area. Check out the tax code if you'd like to have your head spin a few times.

At the end of the day, doesn't this all come down to ethics? If for instance the rule regarding athletically motivated transfers was grounded in the spirit of not allowing a move other than for academics or relocation, wouldn't it be incumbent on all parties involved to follow the spirit of the rule and comply v. trying to work around it to get what they want? Is the real issue the question of whether playing sports a right v. a privilege?
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

Some high school coaches make upwards of 100,000 dollars to coach football.

High school football has unfortunately become a business and the only interest served by CIF is of those wanting control of the product.

Spare me the rest of the details.
ancient
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by ancient »

Rules to manage sports programs are certainly beneficial and necessary. I believe what most people find distasteful is the inequity in applying the rules. Corruption within the system is apparent.

However, lies and deceit will eventually be exposed and truth and justice will prevail. I for one wish the young and innocent will be spared the consequences. Those who cause others to do wrong will face an even worse punishment. So, in the end, the only thing to do is that which is righteous. You win at nothing when you have acted dishonorably. A good lesson for us all; sports is about learning something of great value.
jjirsa78
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by jjirsa78 »

atgreek wrote:Some high school coaches make upwards of 100,000 dollars to coach football.

High school football has unfortunately become a business and the only interest served by CIF is of those wanting control of the product.

Spare me the rest of the details.
It's obvious that everything revolves around money. Attendance determines funding for schools, and football gates determine attendance for athletic departments. The CIF serves to protect all member schools by preventing monopolization of the human capital that draws the gate that funds the programs. If you believe that's wrong (if you think it's OK that schools with rich alumni boosters can pay coaches more, build better weight rooms, win more often, and recruit away all of the talent from surrounding poor schools), then there's simply a difference of opinion between you and the member schools who have voted to establish these rules.
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek »

Human capital??? Really?

If that's how you want to define kids who play sports, I have a word for you.

Slavery.

Until you're paid, you're no one's human capital.

Try again.
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regularbob
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by regularbob »

Within the next 5 years, HS Football will be on the same program that HS basketball is. Like it or not. It is happening all over the country with "club teams" coming together to play in passing league and showcase camps.
When it comes to CIF they are arbitrary at best in its rulings.
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Bick
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Bick »

atgreek wrote:Human capital??? Really?

If that's how you want to define kids who play sports, I have a word for you.

Slavery.

Until you're paid, you're no one's human capital.

Try again.
Yeah, really. It's a common term, like human resources, used to differentiate from plant and equipment.

Slavery??? Sounds like something Adrian Peterson would argue while pocketing $11 mil a year.
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