The value of the CIF

oracle
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by oracle » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:54 am

I thought I'd through my two cents into thisw fray. A lot of points and emotioonal arguments have been made. The CIF has a role to play in our high school system, however, how they write and enforce rulings plays a huge part in their effectivenesws and relavance. If you write a law or policy and it is vague, irrelavant or has so many holes that a law intern could wiggle his way out of it, what's the use in having the policy? If the governing body desplays a lack of consistancy or inability to enforce their own policies what good are the policies or that governing body? If the governing organization has poor or weak leadership that demonstrates bias, personal agendas or inconsistant decisions, do they have credibility?

The way the CIF is set up, it's members are the ones responsible for establishing rules and guidelines, the CIF leadership is supposed to enforce those rules. When the rules and policies don't make sense, are ineffective or just cannot be enforced due to being poorly written, the leadership should advise the membership that they have poorly written laws and changes need to be made, instead of trying to force a policy which has no teeth or has so many loopholes that it will get over turned 90% of the time.
In order to have credeibility and do the job they are supposed to the CIF needs to get more pro active than just reactionary.

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ND7
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by ND7 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:23 pm

Luca wrote:

No matter how much you try to fine tune the rules, someone will be able to manipulate them and distort the whole system. When you say "enforce residency vehemently", how do you propose to do that? One of my neighbors sold his home for about $4 million a few years ago and rented an apartment for a few months in Ladera so that his kid could play at Tesoro before they bought a new house in Monarch Bay. It was an obvious athletic transfer, but they did move.

Just because people move doesn't mean it wasn't an athletic transfer. You are kidding yourself if you think you can write the rules so precisely that they can't be circumvented. The rules may be black and white but they won't yield the intended effect. You have to allow for common sense judgment and you can't eliminate the need for it.

OldMan, of course the CIF is the judge and jury. That's the way it was intended. Who else should be the judge, Coaches McKnight or Johnson? What you object to is what you believe is capricious use of the athletic motivation rule by biased CIF officials. In that event, the problem isn't the rule, it's the way individuals are applying it. That can be dealt with. But to claim that we should do away with the concept of disallowing athletically motivated transfers undermines the entire system. I disagree that every transfer is athletically motivated.

If you doubt the results of abolishing these rules, you have only to look at high school basketball. It's like arguing with people who think that the US government should continue borrowing and spending and expanding government programs. You look at them and say "Haven't you seen what's happening in Greece and Spain? This has already been tried before and we don't have to guess what's going to happen."

Of course coaches come and go. One day McKnight and Johnson will retire and their 2 or 3 decades long club team dynasties might pass to another program for a few decades. This is not what I call competitive equity. If there are a handful of athletes here and there who feel their lives are negatively impacted by a coach, that is unfortunate but there are more important issues at hand and that is no reason to put the entire high school sports system at risk just for their perceived benefit. We don't shaft 98% of the kids because 2% feel their lives are hugely impacted and insist on playing wherever they want to. That's not how colleges work, that's not how the pros work that has never been how high schools work. You do not have a "right" to play high school sports wherever you choose.

My father used to have a saying that "When you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember that your initial intent was to drain the swamp." These days when we are arguing about athletically motivated transfers and bogus relocations and interpretations of undue influence perhaps we should refocus on the core purpose and value of high school sports. It is not to maximize the chances of a given athlete to be seen by college recruiters. It is not to allow a prima donna father to relive his youth. It is an extension of the high school experience and was never meant to replace it. Just because some have their priorities reversed does not mean that the system is somehow obsolete. Luca
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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:08 pm

Why don't you look and tell me who at the CIF handles transfers for schools I-P?

That would include M for Mission Viejo. OHHHH, look at that, the lady from Mission Viejo High School.

Well, I'll be... no one ever transfers to MV for athletics. She says so.

Yeah, nice set up.

THETRUTH
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by THETRUTH » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:26 am

atgreek wrote:How f-ing condescending. I have read the Blue book, I have read all the notes from the meetings on the website, the state site, and I still think their decisions are arbitrary and capricious.

Steve Fryer at the OC Register nailed it. Get rid of the athletically motivated language.

Duh, so much for you reading the rule book, that is why there is two appeal stages, they cal that due process.
Last edited by THETRUTH on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:30 am

THETRUTH wrote:

Steve Fryer, he is a reporter, what is his degree in, what educational degree does he have, and for that matter do you have?

Back at you. What do you have?

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:31 am

:ROFL: at the concept that an educational degree is the requirement.

Try law.

THETRUTH
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by THETRUTH » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:36 am

atgreek wrote::ROFL: at the concept that an educational degree is the requirement.

Try law.
Hahaha, yes it is, once again, so much for you reading the Blue Book

MDDad
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by MDDad » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:40 am

THETRUTH wrote:

Steve Fryer, he is a reporter, what is his degree in, what educational degree does he have, and for that matter do you have?
And the CIF transfer decision-makers are administrators. What motivational psychology degrees to they have? What psychiatric training do they have to determine motivation?

Greek is right. When it comes to motivation, they are not qualified to render the decisions that the rules require of them. The very high percentage of cases that get overturned on appeal is evidence of that. Get rid of the "athletically motivated" language, or get someone with the qualifications to make those determinations.

THETRUTH
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by THETRUTH » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:45 am

MDDad wrote:
And the CIF transfer decision-makers are administrators. What motivational psychology degrees to they have? What psychiatric training do they have to determine motivation?

Greek is right. When it comes to motivation, they are not qualified to render the decisions that the rules require of them. The very high percentage of cases that get overturned on appeal is evidence of that. Get rid of the "athletically motivated" language, or get someone with the qualifications to make those determinations.
These areas are included in advance degrees whithin the subject area.


BTW, I personally know one individual who serves on those three person panesls and he is a world class athlete, played college D-I football, was a officer who was awarded a silver star in Vietnam, was a teacher, a principal and has a Ph. D. in Psychology. Does that answer your question Daddy!

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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by MDDad » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:53 am

THETRUTH wrote:
These areas are included in advance degrees whithin the subject area.
First, with all due respect, I think your answer is baloney.

Second, even if it were true, I'd assume it would also be true of the members who sit on the appeals panel and routinely overturn the Southern Section's decisions on athletically-motivated transfers.

Look, people are going to continue to transfer, whether we like it or not. Families deserve clear criteria and a clear recipe for doing so, not the subjective mumbo-jumbo we have today.

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:54 am

THETRUTH wrote:
These areas are included in advance degrees whithin the subject area.


BTW, I personally know one individual who serves on those three person panesls and he is a world class athlete, played college D-I football, was a officer who was awarded a silver star in Vietnam, was a teacher, a principal and has a Ph. D. in Psychology. Does that answer your question Daddy!

It answers nothing, but it confirms my suspicion, you post as if you were a buffoon.

"Serves on those 3 person panels"

You make MDD's point. They over turn a lot of decisions on appeal.

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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 am

MDDad, if they got rid of the "athletically motivated" restrictions, that would allow sophomores through seniors to make bogus "relocations" (since trying to define or limit ersatz relocations would reintroduce the same vagaries as "athletically motivated transfers") and for all practical purposes end any restrictions on brazen athletic transfers in high school sports.

I can understand the frustration at the way some of these necessarily subjective decisions are made, but is this really what you want? Because of unhappiness at a handful of situations you want to essentially toss all the restrictions and open the gate for the inevitable prostitution of high school sports? To formally recognize the death of one of the few ideals we are trying to maintain?

I know you are going to call me naïve and outdated (and if not you, then others) but I am not willing to go quietly into the night and yield on what I consider an enormously important institution we should bequeath to our children. Luca

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 am

MDDad wrote:
First, with all due respect, I think your answer is baloney.

Second, even if it were true, I'd assume it would also be true of the members who sit on the appeals panel and routinely overturn the Southern Section's decisions on athletically-motivated transfers.

Look, people are going to continue to transfer, whether we like it or not. Families deserve clear criteria and a clear recipe for doing so, not the subjective mumbo-jumbo we have today.


Couldn't have expressed it more simply than that. :thumbsup:

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:56 am

Luca wrote:MDDad, if they got rid of the "athletically motivated" restrictions, that would allow sophomores through seniors to make bogus "relocations" (since trying to define or limit ersatz relocations would reintroduce the same vagaries as "athletically motivated transfers") and for all practical purposes end any restrictions on brazen athletic transfers in high school sports.

I can understand the frustration at the way some of these necessarily subjective decisions are made, but is this really what you want? Because of unhappiness at a handful of situations you want to essentially toss all the restrictions and open the gate for the inevitable prostitution of high school sports? To formally recognize the death of one of the few ideals we are trying to maintain?

I know you are going to call me naïve and outdated (and if not you, then others) but I am not willing to go quietly into the night and yield on what I consider an enormously important institution we should bequeath to our children. Luca

All those moves would stimulate the economy. ](*,)

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:07 am

Luca wrote:MDDad, if they got rid of the "athletically motivated" restrictions, that would allow sophomores through seniors to make bogus "relocations" (since trying to define or limit ersatz relocations would reintroduce the same vagaries as "athletically motivated transfers") and for all practical purposes end any restrictions on brazen athletic transfers in high school sports.

I can understand the frustration at the way some of these necessarily subjective decisions are made, but is this really what you want? Because of unhappiness at a handful of situations you want to essentially toss all the restrictions and open the gate for the inevitable prostitution of high school sports? To formally recognize the death of one of the few ideals we are trying to maintain?

I know you are going to call me naïve and outdated (and if not you, then others) but I am not willing to go quietly into the night and yield on what I consider an enormously important institution we should bequeath to our children. Luca

When some coaches make serious bank, high school sports have already been prostituted. CIF just doesn't want to lose control of the product. If they (CIF, Coaches) want to donate their time, and just get a stipend, I might buy your argument.

Sorry to break the news to you.

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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:12 am

atgreek wrote:All those moves would stimulate the economy. ](*,)

I am not a widely respected economist like yourself, but it seems to me that if we leveled the playing field and made high school sports the competitive institution that they used to be, then the local interest would increase, the attendance at the games would increase, the amount of money available to the high schools would increase, educational quality would increase, families would spend more time together at the games and re-bond, divorces would drop, there would be fewer single-parent families leading to an increase in expendable income expanding the economy thereby allowing us to address serious problems such as global warming more aggressively.

In theory. Luca

THETRUTH
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by THETRUTH » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:15 am

atgreek wrote:

It answers nothing, but it confirms my suspicion, you post as if you were a buffoon.

"Serves on those 3 person panels"

You make MDD's point. They over turn a lot of decisions on appeal.
Name calling agian huh? Each phase of the three stages is charged with looking at different factors, if you have a problem with it, go talk to your schools principal, not post on a message board where ZERO can be accomplished.

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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by Luca » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:24 am

atgreek wrote: Couldn't have expressed it more simply than that. :
Don't underestimate yourself, greek. You can express things more simply than anybody I know.

(Sorry, that was a cheap shot but you did set yourself up.)
atgreek wrote:When some coaches make serious bank, high school sports have already been prostituted. CIF just doesn't want to lose control of the product. If they (CIF, Coaches) want to donate their time, and just get a stipend, I might buy your argument.

Sorry to break the news to you.
What the hell........?

You're not breaking any "news" here, Greek, you're expounding on a more wild-assed fantasy than my closely reasoned economic theory above.

You keep saying that there is a relationship between how much high school coaches are paid and the inevitability of high school sports having "already been prostituted."

Just how many high school coaches in Orange County do you think are getting paid that much money to coach? McKnight? Probably 3 to 5 of the Trinity league football coaches? The lacrosse coach at JSerra? With over 80 high schools and probably close to 1000 different programs, maybe six to ten in total?

And you draw such a sweeping conclusion as this based on the assumption that a small number of highly paid coaches is synonymous with "prostitution"? I wonder if they give Nobel prizes in hyperbole.

The system is inching along in the wrong direction I will admit, but it is inching along in that direction because of the constant bitching and moaning of a handful of fans who do not recognize the intrinsic worth and value of traditional high school sports and want it reoriented to their benefit.

Remember what I quoted earlier: "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:28 am

Does it matter how many?

I appreciate your idealism, however, you're just arguing which method would result in a better product.

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atgreek
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Re: The value of the CIF

Post by atgreek » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:31 am

THETRUTH wrote:
Name calling agian huh? Each phase of the three stages is charged with looking at different factors, if you have a problem with it, go talk to your schools principal, not post on a message board where ZERO can be accomplished.
The principal? What's his/her motivation for change.

Change will only come from lawsuits.

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