Horrible Officiating

seeinred
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Horrible Officiating

Post by seeinred »

Zebra, I'm certain you are reading this as the title will no doubt catch your eyes. Last nights game of LHHS v DHHS was a game in which the officials clearly got in the way of a good football game. It was sad for Dana as they played well enough to win. It was odd, almost as if the Dana sideline pissed off the officials and the officials acted like they had a vendetta against them. Yet I never really saw the Dana guys going crazy on the officials.
I know that coaches can send in game film to CIF for review, but does anything ever really happen from that?
I just wonder if some officials know how hard kids work to win when they get in their way with their incompetences and personal grudges...
Red
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by Red »

seeinred wrote:Zebra, I'm certain you are reading this as the title will no doubt catch your eyes. Last nights game of LHHS v DHHS was a game in which the officials clearly got in the way of a good football game. It was sad for Dana as they played well enough to win. It was odd, almost as if the Dana sideline pissed off the officials and the officials acted like they had a vendetta against them. Yet I never really saw the Dana guys going crazy on the officials.
I know that coaches can send in game film to CIF for review, but does anything ever really happen from that?
I just wonder if some officials know how hard kids work to win when they get in their way with their incompetences and personal grudges...
:yawn
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mar595
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by mar595 »

specifics? Did the officials sit on the wide receivers or let the defense do that. Were turnovers not allowed to be had by one team? What was so bad that you would pose this question? What did they call wrong or not call? How close were you?

I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to get a better understanding of why you felt the refs sucked.
seeinred
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by seeinred »

mar595 wrote:specifics? Did the officials sit on the wide receivers or let the defense do that. Were turnovers not allowed to be had by one team? What was so bad that you would pose this question? What did they call wrong or not call? How close were you?

I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to get a better understanding of why you felt the refs sucked.
There were really 10 calls that left the people in the stadium confused as to what and why they were calling. I'd love to be able to have and show film so that all could analyze and see what went on in specific detail. I fully understand that the outcome is what it is, and to the people who weren't there, this post appears to be nothing more than sour grapes. I really just wanted to know what does Speed Castillo at CIF do when film is brought to him by coaches who felt like they've been jobbed by officials...
mar595
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by mar595 »

seeinred wrote: There were really 10 calls that left the people in the stadium confused as to what and why they were calling. I'd love to be able to have and show film so that all could analyze and see what went on in specific detail. I fully understand that the outcome is what it is, and to the people who weren't there, this post appears to be nothing more than sour grapes. I really just wanted to know what does Speed Castillo at CIF do when film is brought to him by coaches who felt like they've been jobbed by officials...
There always seems to be calls that have people in the stands wondering. I was at the Pacifica/Cypress game last night and it was the same a few times, but I normally watch the coaches on the side line. They are a lot closer, and they are the ones that get explanation from the crew. If the coaches are not getting upset, then they feel that everyting is OK. So many calls are just judgement and angles.

I have coached in many sports over the past 15 years and one thing I know for sure is that if the referees are making mistakes, they will make them both ways. IN the long run, everything will usually work out to be fair. It doesn't seem that way when a bad call is made, but it works out. Screaming at them usually makes it worse, not better, but most referees will have a discussion about the call if a coach has questions and doesn't come across as hostile.

Last night there were a few calls that actually took as long as 5 minutes, or so it seemed, to get straight. By the time the play was discussed, and the ball was placed, it was a long time. Over all though, I felt good about the way the game was called. Ball placement was corrected a few times, but for the calls made, they always got the placement right in the end. For some, it may have seemed that the officials had an impact on the out come, but in reality, the officials just did their job. It is always hard to stomach a TD being called back, but holding is holding.
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

seeinred wrote: There were really 10 calls that left the people in the stadium confused as to what and why they were calling. I'd love to be able to have and show film so that all could analyze and see what went on in specific detail. I fully understand that the outcome is what it is, and to the people who weren't there, this post appears to be nothing more than sour grapes. I really just wanted to know what does Speed Castillo at CIF do when film is brought to him by coaches who felt like they've been jobbed by officials...
He uses the film as evaluation of the crew and for training purposes.

As for last nights game, I would be curious what calls you are talking about. I don't think there were many calls that were bad calls last night, if anything there were some concerns about 2 non-calls in the first half and a false start/offsides that ended up being waved off for some odd reason.
Dana picked up a few fouls for procedural problems (multiple illegal formations for not enough guys on the line) including twice where the official was telling the wr that he needed to move up, wasn't on the line and he didn't move or check with the official. The punts were an attempt to move the gunners down to help with the protection, but both guys moved off the ball as an extra wing, leaving only 5 guys on the line. Coach had to call a timeout to ask what they were doing wrong. The only other call that took some time to figure out was a holding call on Dana on a LH punt. The two guys covering the Laguna gunner held him and the side judge threw a flag. The dispute was if the hold took place before the ball crossed the LOS, if it did, then it would still be LH ball. If the hold took place after, the refs were saying it would be from the end of the run (which is wrong and corrected by the refs after consulting as a group). The penalty was correctly marked from the spot of the catch.

The other Dana penalties were pretty clear-cut. PI, facemask and a personal foul.

Were there other ones?
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Zebra
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by Zebra »

seeinred wrote:Zebra, I'm certain you are reading this as the title will no doubt catch your eyes. Last nights game of LHHS v DHHS was a game in which the officials clearly got in the way of a good football game. It was sad for Dana as they played well enough to win. It was odd, almost as if the Dana sideline pissed off the officials and the officials acted like they had a vendetta against them. Yet I never really saw the Dana guys going crazy on the officials.
I know that coaches can send in game film to CIF for review, but does anything ever really happen from that?
I just wonder if some officials know how hard kids work to win when they get in their way with their incompetences and personal grudges...
I can tell you from personal experience that the Dana staff can and will give a flank official a challenging time. I had them versus Aliso and I had to reach deep into my magic bag to keep them off the sideline, out of my way and off my back. I succeded but frankly, I think that game may have cost me my playoff spot due to the staff not adhereing to the rules to stay back and making me "remind" them many many times. It was called out in my evaluation. That said, the Head Coach, really helped me out with sideline control, but the rest of the staff, WOW.

Now, we have been told to work with the coaching staff but sometimes, that simply doesn't work. Coaches are used to staying that box and some will not change. Sideline controllis a POE the past two seasons. It's really a bad deal for the flank official because he has to protect himself from players and coaches being in that box. Our attention is on the field and when we hit someone on the sideline, it hurts. When we get coaches that will not work with us and combine that with an official that has had enough or is maybe as you say, imcompetent, it gets testy. Best thing is for the coahing staff to coach and let the refs ref. No less than 8 times during my game, I had a coach that told me he coached D1 ball, be wrong literally everytime when I told him the rule he is argueing is a college rule.

I personally watch every one of my games on Hudl, a tool that stores and shares game film. Awesome tool!

Hang in there man ... we are human and have bad days and make mistakes. The majority of officials do realize what they are out there for .. it certainly is not to get into a pissing match with a high school coaching staff of "job" a bunch of teenagers.
Coach, you can call me a S.O.B. all you want. Just don't call me a little S.O.B. [-X
Mr. Grady
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by Mr. Grady »

I agree that over the course of a season, but usually not every game, the penalties tend to be a wash and bad penalties go both ways and affect both teams. However, the problem with officiating is the mismanagement of the play clock (starting it too early after a first down, delay of game at 21 or 22 seconds), bad spots, mismanagement of the chain gang, time outs that are cut short at 40 seconds rather than the full 2 minutes depriving kids of water, rest and instruction, players going out of bounds and the refs saying they were somehow "tackled" in bounds to "keep the game (i.e game clock) moving"???, poor spotting, an obsessiion with sideline warnings/sideline management, bad spotting, an unwillingness to explain themselves to coaches allowing them to continue their poor ways with impunity etc., etc., efc. These are the little things that really impact a game. Not the bad PI calls that most casual fans don't realize even out.
ringer
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by ringer »

High-level high school football officiating has to be tough, with over-energized coaches, players and spectactors, and low-grade pay. It has to simply be something that you like to do. I'm thinking that in the vast majority of instances there is no bias and the officials are just trying to call it the way they see it; competency issues may vary.
Sparky
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by Sparky »

I sure hope that the officials for the Dana Hills vs. Laguna Hills game review the Hudl films. Or maybe they should look at the photo on today's OC Varsity section of the OC Register. On page 4, there is a photo of the Dana Hills player tackling the runner. The ball was clearly popped out,the knee was NOT down, and Dana Hills recovered. However, it was NOT called a fumble and Laguna Hills retained possession! It was an obvious fumble to everyone watching. Also, Dana Hills was punting toward the end of the game and got a penalty. The side judge told the coach it was for a false start but it was actually illegal formation since there weren't 7 men on the line of scrimmage. Therefore, the same thing happened on the next punt attempt and it was illegal formation again. Dana got another penalty and then burned a time out to figure out what was going on. After the 3rd punt and the 3rd time the players had to run about 60 yards down the field and back, they gave up a big run, which essentially lost the game for them.

Also, the refs were overheard during the game discussing whether a false start penalty was 5 yards or 10 yards. Who doesn't know that? Another false start penalty was waived off by the refs since they could not decide which side jumped off. Really? Someone jumped. What's with that? On another play, the ref threw a flag but let the play continue which resulted in an interception by Laguna Hills. The penalty was false start so the entire play should have been negated, but the interception was allowed to stand! There was also a blatant facemask and a horse collar penalty on Dana Hills players but no calls by the refs.

This was an important game for both teams with the Sea View League championship on the line and playoff berths in question. It's a shame that the game was not called fairly and correctly. I think any reasonable person would see this horrendous officiating as biased and incompetent. You make the call!
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

Biased seems a bit unfair. There were claims of a couple missed calls both ways, and the interception was not on a false start penalty, but an illegal formation, a penalty that can be declined. Looking at the film the Dana claims for a horse collar or facemask were not accurate either (I know the play you are referencing).

This is really sounding like sour grapes from Dana fans. There were some calls that are questionable, as there would be in any game, but it wasn't like it was one sided or inaccurate.
Sparky
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by Sparky »

No sour grapes, just telling the truth as to what happened. There was a fumble. Bad non-call. There was a dead ball foul (false start) when Laguna Hills intercepted. That penalty cannot be declined and the play should not have stood. Bad call. Two turnovers that were crucial, as they are in any game. Obviously, there will be no change in the outcome based upon analysis. Just hope the refs pay more attention and read their rule books!
LMNOP
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by LMNOP »

TommyTrojan wrote:
He uses the film as evaluation of the crew and for training purposes.

As for last nights game, I would be curious what calls you are talking about. I don't think there were many calls that were bad calls last night, if anything there were some concerns about 2 non-calls in the first half and a false start/offsides that ended up being waved off for some odd reason.
Dana picked up a few fouls for procedural problems (multiple illegal formations for not enough guys on the line) including twice where the official was telling the wr that he needed to move up, wasn't on the line and he didn't move or check with the official. The punts were an attempt to move the gunners down to help with the protection, but both guys moved off the ball as an extra wing, leaving only 5 guys on the line. Coach had to call a timeout to ask what they were doing wrong. The only other call that took some time to figure out was a holding call on Dana on a LH punt. The two guys covering the Laguna gunner held him and the side judge threw a flag. The dispute was if the hold took place before the ball crossed the LOS, if it did, then it would still be LH ball. If the hold took place after, the refs were saying it would be from the end of the run (which is wrong and corrected by the refs after consulting as a group). The penalty was correctly marked from the spot of the catch.

The other Dana penalties were pretty clear-cut. PI, facemask and a personal foul.

Were there other ones?
And this coming from a LHHS coach?........really why even comment.

Of course you think all the calls were good, LHHS one and done in playoffs
LMNOP
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by LMNOP »

TommyTrojan wrote:Biased seems a bit unfair. There were claims of a couple missed calls both ways, and the interception was not on a false start penalty, but an illegal formation, a penalty that can be declined. Looking at the film the Dana claims for a horse collar or facemask were not accurate either (I know the play you are referencing).

This is really sounding like sour grapes from Dana fans. There were some calls that are questionable, as there would be in any game, but it wasn't like it was one sided or inaccurate.
Sounds like typical LHHS bull
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

LMNOP wrote:
And this coming from a LHHS coach?........really why even comment.

Of course you think all the calls were good, LHHS one and done in playoffs
Didn't say all the calls were good, just that I didn't see what all the gripes were about. Are there calls in every game that a coach thinks was missed, sure. We felt a couple were missed for late hits and a horse collar near our side. Dana felt a horse collar was missed on theirs. We lost a game the week before, yet I didn't see anyone complaining about the refs.

As for the one and one done comment, that really does sound like a poor loser.
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

LMNOP wrote:
Sounds like typical LHHS bull
Whatever that means I suppose.
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

Sparky wrote:No sour grapes, just telling the truth as to what happened. There was a fumble. Bad non-call. There was a dead ball foul (false start) when Laguna Hills intercepted. That penalty cannot be declined and the play should not have stood. Bad call. Two turnovers that were crucial, as they are in any game. Obviously, there will be no change in the outcome based upon analysis. Just hope the refs pay more attention and read their rule books!
That's not what the foul was for. It was an Illegal formation (not enough guys on the line, the last wr looks like he was supposed to be on the line, but isn't, Dana got called for it on the previous play as well).

You are right about the fumble though. The ball was out before the runner's knee hit. At first I thought they ruled that Laguna had recovered it, but weren't giving the forward progress of the fumble, but it looks like the ref near the play rules that he was down before the ball came out.

Honestly the most curious call/non call was the flags thrown for offside/false start and then waiving it off. I guess they weren't sure who jumped first? Never seen that.
LMNOP
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by LMNOP »

TommyTrojan wrote:
Didn't say all the calls were good, just that I didn't see what all the gripes were about. Are there calls in every game that a coach thinks was missed, sure. We felt a couple were missed for late hits and a horse collar near our side. Dana felt a horse collar was missed on theirs. We lost a game the week before, yet I didn't see anyone complaining about the refs.

As for the one and one done comment, that really does sound like a poor loser.
I don't have a dog in the fight just a long time HS fan......and stating facts.

No sour grapes here

Truth hurts I guess
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TommyTrojan
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by TommyTrojan »

LMNOP wrote:
I don't have a dog in the fight just a long time HS fan......and stating facts.

No sour grapes here

Truth hurts I guess
Not sure what truth you are talking about, you stated 0 facts. You clearly have something against our team/school. Enjoy the remainder of the season.
THETRUTH
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Re: Horrible Officiating

Post by THETRUTH »

seeinred wrote: There were really 10 calls that left the people in the stadium confused as to what and why they were calling. I'd love to be able to have and show film so that all could analyze and see what went on in specific detail. I fully understand that the outcome is what it is, and to the people who weren't there, this post appears to be nothing more than sour grapes. I really just wanted to know what does Speed Castillo at CIF do when film is brought to him by coaches who felt like they've been jobbed by officials...

When you find out, let me know. Speedy Castillo most likely hold he record for screwing certain teams. I know for a fact he will just make something up.
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