High School Sports are being Ruined

TheFan
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High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by TheFan »

Clearly when one takes a step back they can see that HS sports are being ruined in California. Texas coaches are taking stances against club sports, 7 on 7 etc...

High School sports should be about developing our youth. One receives so much personal and physical growth from playing on a team sport. As a person who employs many people I see the younger generation not having the understanding of this concept compared to past generations. My preference is to hire former athletes for many reasons.

Less than one percent of HS athletes make into professional sports, less than three to four percent play college athletics, yet the bus is being driven by the minority.

However the emphasis has changed so much and rules have been changed to clearly benefit the minority of schools in HS sports that want to win at any cost.

So to keep this post short....not in any particular order

1) Allowing Club coaches to coach in HS Team, huge conflict of interest at the very least. These guys are weasel there way into a school and only are thinking about themselves.
2) Admin emphasis to move away from teacher/coaches...backfired...
3) Private schools turning 15 year old athletes into semi pro players, i.e financial aid...wink wink but we are full for your sister, but not you Mr. 5 star....I think the same of major college football... MD and SJB are not much different at this point.
4) A hand full of Public schools such as MV but not limited to, skirting around the rules...Ag programs.
5) CIF more concerned with play off and TV revenue to maintain their batch of six figure jobs. This is already backfiring on them as they dilute down the playoffs...they need to re-visit this one. Attendance is down in the playoffs because you have placed most of the well attended teams in the same two division.

6) CIF transfer policy....

There are many more reason, this is not solely an attack on private schools but they clearly have accelerated this issue coming to the forefront.
HonorGloryLove
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by HonorGloryLove »

We have different levels of high school sports that address this issue. The CIF does its best to even the playing field. If you are upset by the schools that have the better teams, don't watch the top divisions. There are many good lower division teams one can follow.

And do you think that the kids on the better teams aren't youth who are developing?
TheFan
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by TheFan »

Glory,

I do watch the lower divisions more than D-1,...agree

I think the emphasis today are very much off base, it gets worse toward the upper divisions, especially the privates and few publics. The ends justify the means are not great life lessons. Plus kids being free agents with their trainer acting as their agent is just wrong on so many fronts.
Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

I don't believe the fact that some schools - like IMG / MD / Bosco and whatever other schools have chosen to compete at the national level - have ruined HS sports at all. The vast majority play for the neighborhood HS with their friends.

If the top 2% of athletes want to transfer compete at the highest level, why stop them? Just provides more playing time opportunities for the local kids.

That said, those schools who don't want to compete at that level shouldn't be obligated to schedule or compete for championships with the teams that do.
HonorGloryLove
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by HonorGloryLove »

If the kids are free agents, from what are they free? What restrictions did they have that they are now freed from? There aren't any contracts for kids playing high school football.

The United States has long been less economically restrictive (via law) than other developed nations.

Our society is a competitive one; much more so than other societies. We pay a price for this at the level of the individual.

What has happened is that this competitiveness has filtered down.

Many people are uncomfortable with this, but one could argue that kids who understand this are better equipped for adulthood. I'm not defending the trend, just noting that it exists. It's sad that the loss of innocence happens so early nowadays.
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

The compromise here might be something along the lines of # of transfers moving a school into an Open division come playoff time.

Speaking for football only, say cap the # at 3. At 4+, you're in the Open Division competing with like-minded teams. Leagues can stay the same. No major disruption. Everyone is happy.
HonorGloryLove
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by HonorGloryLove »

I believe Bick's point (about schools not having a choice of the level at which they will compete) is the same one made by Coach Bob Johnson. In his case, however, he's like a Social Darwinist who, having met resistance, turned into a Communist. I have no doubt that if he were to continue coaching, he would change his philosophy to suit his circumstances.

He put himself where he was, and then found he was not quite as good as he imagined.

It's people like him that makes the CIF's job all the harder!
Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

Maybe coincidentally at some level. The agriculture component of that school certainly helped give a measure of cover for out of area kids playing there.

My point was rather than try to control / vilify the transfers, allow schools to become IMG if they so choose. Offer whatever incentives you want to attract players. When you're looking down the barrel of a $200k plus college tuition bill, those high schoolers truly are being rewarded financially for performance. They should be allowed to do what they believe is in their own best interests.

However, when those schools engage in that practice of attracting the very best talent, they have put themselves at a competitive advantage over schools that don't. It's only reasonable they compete with like-minded programs.
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MDGuy
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by MDGuy »

For what it is worth, ALL youth sports are now ruined by the idea little Johnny/Joanie can get scholarships, etc.. It seems kids now have to choose at 8-9yrs what "club" sport they have to play year-round now to even have a shot at playing a sports in high school. I saw it firsthand in coaching little league and NJB in my area. Kids were siphoned off at 9-10years to play on travel/club teams in baseball/soccer/basketball year-round. The idea Pony baseball was better than little league because you can "lead-off" and steal bases was so dumb IMHO. What about playing just to play and have a chance at Williamsport? Nope, we have to prepare for the various Cooperstown tournaments over the summers against teams from other states!

As was mentioned in another thread, once outside specialized "coaching" came into being parents seem to have decided that they need the edge and get the specialized training early to give their kids an advantage over others. A friend of mine started his kid in little league at 8yrs after trying soccer not realizing most of his Pony teammates had been playing since 4-5yrs and he was way beyond the 8-ball on skills and quit after one year. Who knew you could be washed up by 9 years in baseball?
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Professor Fate »

Bick wrote: Speaking for football only, say cap the # at 3. At 4+, you're in the Open Division competing with like-minded teams. Leagues can stay the same. No major disruption. Everyone is happy.
The problem with this is that everyone will not be happy. It solves the problems as far as the playoffs are concerned, but it leaves the problem unaddressed on the league level. Schools then are forced to choose between going after 4 or more star transfers from other schools (like Mater Dei and Bosco do) or forever give up any chance at a league title. The leagues need to be reorganized to include schools who are like minded about this issue.
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Ramon
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Ramon »

Finally an adult discussion about High School Sports without name calling...Good on you Gents!!!
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Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

As a practical matter, I don't think you could organize a league filled with "Open Div" teams mainly because of geography. For argument's sake, let's say that league would be comprised of MD, SJB, Cen10, MV, Oaks, Narbonne? Pretty sure that wouldn't fly. Again, I said the compromise would be the Open playoff division. It's not that dissimilar from the current multiple playoff divisions contained in the various leagues.
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Professor Fate »

Then you force the pro teams to go freelance.
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Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

If you made that argument at the very top, wouldn't you also have to do the same in the middle? La Mirada dominated the much weaker and lower level teams in the Suburban in the same way La Habra dominated the Freeway, or CDM with the PCL (until 2018).

I think the slope gets real slippery when talking about league alignment based on team strength.
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Professor Fate »

Leagues should have agreed upon limits. If a La Mirada or a La Habra ignored them they could be voted out of the league to find another home if they can. If not...freelance.
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

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Look at the six freelance teams in the North Coast. They range from De La Salle with a 70.9 rating to Albany with a -40.1 rating.
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by MDDad »

I agree with Ramon, this has the potential to be an excellent discussion if the usual complaining can be laid aside for a while. TheFan, thanks for starting it, sincerely. I've also noticed over the last 15 years or so that any thread that compels HonorGloryLove to contribute is usually of a higher caliber intellectually than the rest.

A cap on the number of transfers is unreasonable for many reasons. Here's just one:

One of the more compelling and heart-warming stories of last season was the CIF championships won by county schools Katella and Orange. Katella had never won a title in 51 years of playing football, but they won their first in 2017, won their regional playoff game, and played in a state bowl game. Orange has been around for 114 years. They won their only CIF football championship 89 years ago, but they won another one in 2017. They also won their regional playoff game and played in a state bowl game. Good for them. There was even a thread here that extolled the virtues of neighborhood schools making good with neighborhood kids.

There's only one problem. Either people didn't know or didn't want to point out that Katella had eight transfers on its team - only two less than Mercenary Dei. On a roster of only 32 varsity players, Orange had 13 transfers, or 40% of their team. Of their six team captains, five were transfers.

In this proposed new world order of transfer caps, they would both be playing in the Open Division, and that makes no sense to me.
TheFan
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by TheFan »

How do you all feel about club coaches, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. For example a coach could have a club program that essentially feeds his HS, if you don't join his club team, pay the dues, unless your a blue chip prospect you will ride the pine. I think that is a huge conflict of interest, public or private.
Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

MDDad wrote: There's only one problem. Either people didn't know or didn't want to point out that Katella had eight transfers on its team - only two less than Mercenary Dei. On a roster of only 32 varsity players, Orange had 13 transfers, or 40% of their team. Of their six team captains, five were transfers.

In this proposed new world order of transfer caps, they would both be playing in the Open Division, and that makes no sense to me.
Maybe in the xfer cap world, they would be moved up a division or 3 instead of all the way up to Open? Maybe scale it depending on the number of xfers?
Bick
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Re: High School Sports are being Ruined

Post by Bick »

TheFan wrote: How do you all feel about club coaches, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. For example a coach could have a club program that essentially feeds his HS, if you don't join his club team, pay the dues, unless your a blue chip prospect you will ride the pine. I think that is a huge conflict of interest, public or private.
Those all-star club teams may influence attendance to certain high schools to a degree, but many of those teams draw from a wide geographic area. They'd have to move to within the school district boundaries to attend. Not seeing how they could be considered a "feeder" regardless of which school the club coach helps at.
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