How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Charles
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How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

Here's a question for parents and all other tax payers. How can teacher's demonstrate their value?

It seems that people in industry are valuable to the company they work for when they bring in revenue or increase productivity. Teachers, however, don't bring in revenue nor can they increase productivity (educate more students in this case). So, in the absence of seniority rules, which many states are trying to do away with, how do you determine the worth of a teacher?
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pattywannamack
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by pattywannamack »

Charles wrote:Here's a question for parents and all other tax payers. How can teacher's demonstrate their value?

It seems that people in industry are valuable to the company they work for when they bring in revenue or increase productivity. Teachers, however, don't bring in revenue nor can they increase productivity (educate more students in this case). So, in the absence of seniority rules, which many states are trying to do away with, how do you determine the worth of a teacher?
I would say a committee evaluation every four years which examines test scores, grade trends, and interviews of current high school students who had the teacher. Of course there should be consideration for the seniority and teaching experience/credentials of the teacher as well as any other responsibilities the teacher has (such as being a coach or running a club).
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Troglodyte
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Charles wrote:Here's a question for parents and all other tax payers. How can teacher's demonstrate their value?

It seems that people in industry are valuable to the company they work for when they bring in revenue or increase productivity. Teachers, however, don't bring in revenue nor can they increase productivity (educate more students in this case). So, in the absence of seniority rules, which many states are trying to do away with, how do you determine the worth of a teacher?
By how prepared the student is for the next step in their education.. Do they really know the subject, or are they just parroting..
(No, Paul, this is no reference to you.... )
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

Troglodyte wrote: By how prepared the student is for the next step in their education.. Do they really know the subject, or are they just parroting..
(No, Paul, this is no reference to you.... )
How would a teacher who teaches a bunch of high performing kids rate compared toa teacher who teaches a bunch of ESL kids? The former would rate a lot higher using your method but that teacher may not necessarily have performed better. Some sort of baseline would have to be established with which to compare progress. The former teacher could "mail it in" and achieve low gains but could hie kids could still be very prepared. The ESL teacher could make significant gains but his kids could still be a lot less prepared for the next step in their educations.

Isn't
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oceanvue
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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I would count apples
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

oceanvue wrote:I would count apples
Or, they could be rated similarly to how a lot of other people are rated in life: By how attractive they are.
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SLK230
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by SLK230 »

Charles wrote:
How would a teacher who teaches a bunch of high performing kids rate compared toa teacher who teaches a bunch of ESL kids? The former would rate a lot higher using your method but that teacher may not necessarily have performed better. Some sort of baseline would have to be established with which to compare progress. The former teacher could "mail it in" and achieve low gains but could hie kids could still be very prepared. The ESL teacher could make significant gains but his kids could still be a lot less prepared for the next step in their educations.

Isn't
Easy. You could handicap it like in golf for example.
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Troglodyte
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Troglodyte »

Charles wrote:
How would a teacher who teaches a bunch of high performing kids rate compared toa teacher who teaches a bunch of ESL kids? The former would rate a lot higher using your method but that teacher may not necessarily have performed better. Some sort of baseline would have to be established with which to compare progress. The former teacher could "mail it in" and achieve low gains but could hie kids could still be very prepared. The ESL teacher could make significant gains but his kids could still be a lot less prepared for the next step in their educations.

Isn't
The high performing kids would be expected to go on to college level courses. The ESL kids are expected to learn English.
Too many kids are pushed into the next grade level that haven't even grasped the basics of the grade they're in.
That is a setup for failure for the kid, the school, and big problems when he becomes 'lost' and bored.
There should be a set of tests, made up by the next grade level, to see if the kid is prepared to take those classes.
Both covering the writen material, and an understanding of that material.. The teacher should be judged on the class results.
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

Troglodyte wrote: The high performing kids would be expected to go on to college level courses. The ESL kids are expected to learn English.
Too many kids are pushed into the next grade level that haven't even grasped the basics of the grade they're in.
That is a setup for failure for the kid, the school, and big problems when he becomes 'lost' and bored.
There should be a set of tests, made up by the next grade level, to see if the kid is prepared to take those classes.
Both covering the writen material, and an understanding of that material.. The teacher should be judged on the class results.
Right now, are standardized test results used to evaluate teachers? (I don't know the answer to this question.)
Last edited by Charles on Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Troglodyte
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Charles wrote:
Right now, are standardized test results used to evaluate teachers? (I don't know the answer to this question.)

rIGHT NOW, ARE TEACHERS


rIGHT NOW,
The standardized tests seem to be too politicized and PC. What I'm talking about is a 4th grade teacher testing to see if the 3rd graders are ready for their classes, or not. Same with colleges seeing if the incoming freashmen are ready for college level classes. Schools are too busy teaching remedial work to get around to teaching the supposed level work. If a kid doesn't have the basics down cold, they're surely not gonna keep up with the regular class work..
If they can't speak and write English at their grade level, how are they gonna understand the rest of their lessons..
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not4u13
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by not4u13 »

This question is really difficult to answer. As you point out, the traditional measures simply don't work. It is really easy to say that they should be measured on how well they prepare their students for the next level (whatever that next level is for that student) ... but exactly how do you measure that ... in a fair and equitable way.

We can't even evaluate schools well, how do we expect to go down a level and evaluate each teacher, individually?

I think of some of the conversations I have as a parent with other parents. We'll get to talking about school and teachers and I'll hear a parent tell me something like this ... "we really love Joey's teacher ... she is wonderful ... really helping Joey reach his potential. "

Wow right? The follow-up question is most often ... "so who does Joey have?"

... and then it happens ... more often than I think most people realize ... they name that they give is the name of the teacher that our little Joey had a few years ago ... that we though was horrible.

Did the teacher just get better? Are they teaching a different grade/subject? What is happening here?

What is happening is a combination of factors. Everything from the learning style of the child to the conditions that teacher is facing in that particular classroom at that particular time. It can also be the perception of each parent. Perhaps that first parent, the one who thinks teacher X is doing wonderful things for Joey, is really pretty clueless and is just looking at Joey's improving grades ... grades that are improving because the teacher has lowered her expectations. Maybe the problem is my kid. My Joey didn't do well in that class and I'm blaming the teacher.

There is no clear answer. We only have a clear problem. Our schools are failing and we keep throwing more money at them when money isn't the issue.
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Troglodyte
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Who here really likes to start a job where the previous worker failed to leave the jobsite in a prepared manner?
Shoving an unprepared kid into the next grade level just frustrates the kid, the class, and the teacher.
It would most definately set the kid up for failure, and most likely give the kid a worse self image than leaving him back a year.
If it is really "for the child", as the teacher's unions constantly chant, they should be the first ones to want to get rid of incompetant and ineffective teacher's. How better than to have the teachers, themselves, write the tests and standards for entrance exams to their classrooms. The students who fail may not have to repeat a whole grade, but get intensified classes in the subject(s) they are deficient in until they get up to speed.
From my granddaughter's homework (1st and 5th grades) I see that the schools are still not using proven methods like "Hooked on Phonics" Why???
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SLK230
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Many teachers will tell you they don't believe in any type of evaluation. There argument was that their jobs are so unique that no fair method was ever possible.

I have always felt that this a pile of you know what.

Any and everyone can be (and are) evaluated no matter what the job. What the teachers (pushed by the teachers union) really want is a way to get increases in pay with no responsibility for their performance.

No wonder the schools are failing. Even if a poor teacher is identified firing him/her can take years. (Assuming they have tenure)

That is one reason why private schools always do a better job at educating children. The teachers either perform or are fired.
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

SLK230 wrote:Many teachers will tell you they don't believe in any type of evaluation. There argument was that their jobs are so unique that no fair method was ever possible.

I have always felt that this a pile of you know what.

Any and everyone can be (and are) evaluated no matter what the job. What the teachers (pushed by the teachers union) really want is a way to get increases in pay with no responsibility for their performance.

No wonder the schools are failing. Even if a poor teacher is identified firing him/her can take years. (Assuming they have tenure)

That is one reason why private schools always do a better job at educating children. The teachers either perform or are fired.

Private schools have the advantage of a self-selecting demographic; In general, the poorer, less educated, broken home kids aren't attending private schools. Government (public) schools basically have to take the full spectrum of kids - not just the smarter, wealthier families' kids. I doubt any kid will do significantly better in a good (and "good" pretty much means good peers - teachers and facilities don't vary much between South OC and Santa Ana) government school than they would in a private school.
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SLK230
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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Charles wrote:

Private schools have the advantage of a self-selecting demographic; In general, the poorer, less educated, broken home kids aren't attending private schools. Government (public) schools basically have to take the full spectrum of kids - not just the smarter, wealthier families' kids. I doubt any kid will do significantly better in a good (and "good" pretty much means good peers - teachers and facilities don't vary much between South OC and Santa Ana) government school than they would in a private school.
Not sure I understood your last sentence.

The real answer is vouchers. Lets face it The Public school System is IMO the biggest single failure, of any government program, in our entire history. We spend more money then any other country yet are about 25th world wide. No matter how one tries to spin it there is no excuse for those basic facts.
The Public school System is a monopoly and lets face it nothing works well without competition.
Vouchers would create that needed competition.
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

SLK230 wrote:
Not sure I understood your last sentence..
The last sentence - as garbled as it was - was making two points. One, a kid won't perform that much better in a private school than he will in a "good" public school. And two, a "good" public school pretty much means a school with higher performing peers. Schools in South OC don't rate higher than those in Santa Ana because the teachers and facilities are better in south OC. The south OC schools rate higher because the kids are higher performing: they probably speak English as a first language, they probably have more educated parents and wealthier parents and perhaps even more stable parents. All of these correlate strongly with higher performing students.

So, if you are fortunate enough to live in a community with "good" public schools, think twice about laying out the big bucks for a private school. This is especially important if you have lots of kids (to educate). If you have one kid and live in a neighborhood with lower performing schools (lower performing peers) then private school might be a good idea. (This was the case for me. I was an only child in a neighborhood with below average schools including Canoga Park High School, so my parents sent me to private school for 13 years - including kindergarten.) The opposite is true for us now, I have four kids and we live in a neighborhood with high performing schools (Las Flores Middle, Tesoro) so the marginal difference in school quality for a private school isn't worth the expense.
not4u13
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by not4u13 »

Charles wrote: The last sentence - as garbled as it was - was making two points. One, a kid won't perform that much better in a private school than he will in a "good" public school. And two, a "good" public school pretty much means a school with higher performing peers. Schools in South OC don't rate higher than those in Santa Ana because the teachers and facilities are better in south OC. The south OC schools rate higher because the kids are higher performing: they probably speak English as a first language, they probably have more educated parents and wealthier parents and perhaps even more stable parents. All of these correlate strongly with higher performing students.
This is true in my experience. In fact, when you talk to teachers, the good ones usually try their best to "get out" of those schools that are underperforming. The constant struggle to get the students interested in learning, dealing with the violence and disrespect in the classroom and all the other issues that many of the kids demonstrate in these underperforming schools wears on a person. Who wants to go to work every day and pour your heart and soul into a project that is unappreciated, when you can go a few miles down the road and do the same job and feel very rewarded. It takes a truly special teacher to be both very good at your job and be willing to do it in such adverse conditions.
Charles wrote:
So, if you are fortunate enough to live in a community with "good" public schools, think twice about laying out the big bucks for a private school. This is especially important if you have lots of kids (to educate). If you have one kid and live in a neighborhood with lower performing schools (lower performing peers) then private school might be a good idea. (This was the case for me. I was an only child in a neighborhood with below average schools including Canoga Park High School, so my parents sent me to private school for 13 years - including kindergarten.) The opposite is true for us now, I have four kids and we live in a neighborhood with high performing schools (Las Flores Middle, Tesoro) so the marginal difference in school quality for a private school isn't worth the expense.
This is absolutely spot on. I have made almost the exact same argument countless times in these forums when we have discussed public v private. I also have 4 kids to educate. I have one now attending grad school on a full ride academic scholarship. Earned by attending the local public high school, going on to a state university and graduating in just 3.5 years ... at the top of the class. My out of pocket expenditures for this kid to earn a Phd will be less than the total cost of sending one kid through a private high school.

There are many reasons besides academics to send a kid to a private school, but if the reason is academics, you are not getting your ROI.
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SLK230
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

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not4u13 wrote: This is true in my experience. In fact, when you talk to teachers, the good ones usually try their best to "get out" of those schools that are underperforming. The constant struggle to get the students interested in learning, dealing with the violence and disrespect in the classroom and all the other issues that many of the kids demonstrate in these underperforming schools wears on a person. Who wants to go to work every day and pour your heart and soul into a project that is unappreciated, when you can go a few miles down the road and do the same job and feel very rewarded. It takes a truly special teacher to be both very good at your job and be willing to do it in such adverse conditions.



This is absolutely spot on. I have made almost the exact same argument countless times in these forums when we have discussed public v private. I also have 4 kids to educate. I have one now attending grad school on a full ride academic scholarship. Earned by attending the local public high school, going on to a state university and graduating in just 3.5 years ... at the top of the class. My out of pocket expenditures for this kid to earn a Phd will be less than the total cost of sending one kid through a private high school.

There are many reasons besides academics to send a kid to a private school, but if the reason is academics, you are not getting your ROI.

If you and Charles are correct how do you explain the poor showing 25th world wide?

Have you guys seen the John Stossels special on education called "Stupid In America" or the documentary "Waiting For Superman"?

BTW...I am not arguing Private VS public but rather vouchers where you can send your kid where you feel is best. $10,000/kid can buy a lot of good education. We need competition as nothing improves without it especially government programs.
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Charles
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by Charles »

SLK230 wrote:

If you and Charles are correct how do you explain the poor showing 25th world wide?

Have you guys seen the John Stossels special on education called "Stupid In America" or the documentary "Waiting For Superman"?

BTW...I am not arguing Private VS public but rather vouchers where you can send your kid where you feel is best. $10,000/kid can buy a lot of good education. We need competition as nothing improves without it especially government programs.
I don't know too much about vouchers or how they work.


I don't think the 25th ranking has anything to do with what the posts above. We're 25th (if that is true) because of the aggregate of a bunch of factors across the US. The posts above are referring to publiv vs private and higher performing public versus lower performing public.
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SLK230
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Re: How can teachers demonstrate their value?

Post by SLK230 »

Charles wrote:
I don't know too much about vouchers or how they work.

The government spends about $10,000/student for education. The voucher would allow you to send your child to any school you choose instead of being locked into the public school monopoly and poor performing schools.

I don't think the 25th ranking has anything to do with what the posts above. We're 25th (if that is true) because of the aggregate of a bunch of factors across the US. The posts above are referring to publiv vs private and higher performing public versus lower performing public.
Thought for the day:
We are always hearing about how Social Security is going to run out of money.
How come we never hear about Welfare running out of money?
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