10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Space, the environment, new discoveries and new uses for old ones
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Vilepagan
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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Vilepagan » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:18 am

Luca wrote:I think you are missing MDDad's point.

First, there have been plenty of crashes because the math didn't work. The math couldn't predict Bernoulli's effect for the Wright brothers. It couldn't predict any number of problems for Chuck Yeager, because math alone is not adequate.
I think you're wrong about the Wright brothers, and sort of correct about Yeager.
Second, math doesn't "observe" anything. There are certain natural phenomena that can be predicted by mathematical equations (such as large-scale gravitational effects) and some that cannot (such as the decay of radioactive particles). The math doesn't describe or explain anything. Gravity is not "explained" by calculus. We still don't know how gravity works.
I think we're getting into difficulties with English here. While we don't know what causes gravity, we can predict or describe its behavior very accurately with mathematics.
If in fact time "began" with the Big Bang and there was "nothing" before it, how can mathematics - or any branch of science, based as it is on cause and effect - predict how or why it happened? How can a mathematical formula explain "everything" abruptly springing into existence from "nothing"?
Perhaps it can't (I'm certainly no mathematician) but it's beginning to look like that won't be necessary. Most of the theories being discussed now, string theory, dark energy, dark matter, and so on, don't assume the universe was created from "nothing". It's entirely possible that "nothing" doesn't exist in nature and never has.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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SLK230
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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by SLK230 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:55 am

Luca wrote:
Why would you say that?.............Luca

When you treat a seriously ill patient, and you do all you could have done, do you pray for them or trust in the science you learned to heal them?

Which one gives you more confidence?
Thought for the day:
We are always hearing about how Social Security is going to run out of money.
How come we never hear about Welfare running out of money?

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Fordama
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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Fordama » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:31 am

Luca wrote: As long as mankind progresses, so will science and our understanding of the universe. But we are never going to get to any ultimate answers because science can't do it, mathematics alone proves nothing, and I don't think humanity has the IQ to comprehend such complexity.
This is where you jump the shark. There's no better reason to think that we won't come to an understanding than to claim that we absolutely will. To me that is simply a product of lifelong religious indoctrination that we cannot understand all the mysteries of the universe because we can't understand (insert your deity here) is beyond our comprehension.

We may never understand all these so-called mysteries that you speak of. There's a good chance we'll fry ourselves first. However, we cannot simply state that we'll never know. We can, however, see the destructiveness of the idea that we'll never know. It's intellectual defeatism, for if we can't know, we might as well not try.

As far as the discussion of mathematics has gone in this thread--it is a large debate as to whether we "discover" mathematics or we "invented" mathematics. I've never been able to come down on one side or the other.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Vilepagan » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:53 am

Fordama wrote:As far as the discussion of mathematics has gone in this thread--it is a large debate as to whether we "discover" mathematics or we "invented" mathematics. I've never been able to come down on one side or the other.

Fordama
I have to go with "discover". The ratio of the diameter of a circle to its circumference existed before we named it "pi", or noted the correlation.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Luca » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:48 am

SLK230 wrote: When you treat a seriously ill patient, and you do all you could have done, do you pray for them or trust in the science you learned to heal them?

Which one gives you more confidence?
What?
You said:
SLK230 wrote:I think your fear is that we might one day actually create life in the lab and in doing so it will negate gods standing in your mind.
And I asked in return "Why would you say that", ie, that my comments simply reflect a fear of negating god's standing" in my mind?.........Luca

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Luca » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:27 am

Fordama wrote:This is where you jump the shark. There's no better reason to think that we won't come to an understanding than to claim that we absolutely will. To me that is simply a product of lifelong religious indoctrination that we cannot understand all the mysteries of the universe because we can't understand (insert your deity here) is beyond our comprehension.

We may never understand all these so-called mysteries that you speak of. There's a good chance we'll fry ourselves first. However, we cannot simply state that we'll never know. We can, however, see the destructiveness of the idea that we'll never know. It's intellectual defeatism, for if we can't know, we might as well not try.

As far as the discussion of mathematics has gone in this thread--it is a large debate as to whether we "discover" mathematics or we "invented" mathematics. I've never been able to come down on one side or the other.

Fordama
You know, Fordama, there are two ways of approaching a debate, especially one that has defied resolution as long as this one has.

First, you can assume that your opponent - let's say, just for example, someone with academic degrees in science from three universities, a minor in philosophy, a forty-year familiarity with science as a profession and a published scientific author with a hobby of reading physics and cosmology - has actually thought through his position and has a rational basis for his conclusions, or

Second, that his opinions are simply "a product of lifelong religious indoctrination" by the "they" that you previously stated have over the centuries foisted religion upon the ignorant so as to manipulate them.

I imagine that the latter is emotionally more satisfying than the former. I tend to side with Goethe, who stated that "With knowledge comes doubt."

At a rate, by the same token there is no better reason to think that we will come to a total understanding of the Earth's than that we will not. You consider my position intellectual defeatism, I consider yours intellectual hubris.

Just because you don't expect to discover everything does not imply that you should not continue to investigate. At some point you will reach your maximum strength, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue weightlifting. At some point you will die, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to maintain your health. I disagree with your not seeing the point in trying despite inevitable failure.

There are so many non sequiturs that you seem not to have considered. Assuming that there was a big bang, how can you possibly ever discover what happened to bring it about? There is no available information contained within a singularity.

If - as you seem to believe - things simply "always were", how could you ever prove that? How could you prove that "nothing" preceded the existence of energy and matter? So there is no "why" the universe exists? How could you prove that?

If in fact there are multiple other dimensions, how would you prove that? If the best you can do is show that the math is feasible, does that prove that they really exist? Or is it merely "faith" in the infallibility of mathematics?

In my experience almost every scientific discovery creates more questions that it does answers. The more answers you get the more questions are generated based on realities that you never knew existed in the first place. You are entitled to your faith, to believe in the attainment of ultimate and total knowledge and our ability to grasp it even if we stumbled across it. I believe I'll have another drink.......Luca

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by MDDad » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:06 am

Luca wrote:Or is it merely "faith" in the infallibility of mathematics?

I believe I'll have another drink.
1. If mathematics were infallible, all those geniuses who rely on mathematical algorithms to bet on football games would be billionaires. And they aren't.

2. A man of your years shouldn't be drinking, or posting, at 1:30 in the morning.

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Luca » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:23 am

I'm actually much younger than I look.

"I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me." Winston

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Fordama » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:54 pm

"indoctrination" was probable not the best word. Perhaps "immersion" would be a better choice. You can't grow up in this country without being bombarded religious or "spiritual" messages from the time you can understand language. It is an uphill struggle not to buy into the messages that are consistently drummed into us.

Education is helpful in escaping that sort of thinking, but it isn't a cure. Multiple degrees from multiple schools might not even help. Take Dr. Oz: A degree from Harvard, an MD and MBA from Penn. Three degrees from Ivy League schools and the guy still believes in Reiki energy. I liked Star Wars, but I don't believe "The Force" is real!

"If - as you seem to believe - things simply "always were", how could you ever prove that? How could you prove that "nothing" preceded the existence of energy and matter? So there is no "why" the universe exists? How could you prove that?"

This is where you always show the rigid thinking. You accept the wildly unfounded notion that there had to be a beginning to the universe out of absolutely nothing. You can satisfy yourself with that notion because you can fall back on claiming that a deity that you cannot understand did it. You say I can't prove that there is no "why" to the universe, but you can't seem to realize that there isn't even a decent reason to ask "why" in the first place.

You chide me for thinking that we can perhaps unlock the secrets of the past while simultaneously claiming that you can make ultimate predictions about the future.

It's far easier to examine what has happened in the past than it is to examine what hasn't happened in the future.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Fordama » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:56 pm

MDDad wrote: 1. If mathematics were infallible, all those geniuses who rely on mathematical algorithms to bet on football games would be billionaires. And they aren't.
The guys using the right formulas--the bookmakers--are making billions!
MDDad wrote:. A man of your years shouldn't be drinking, or posting, at 1:30 in the morning.
When a thought comes, it comes!

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by MDDad » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Fordama wrote:The guys using the right formulas--the bookmakers--are making billions!
That's just it. The bookies are subjectively setting the odds and pointspreads to split the bets, then adjusting them as the bets roll in. It's the guys using algorithms to decide which side to bet who are lucky to break even.


Fordama wrote:When a thought comes, it comes!
Kind of like a good fart.

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Fordama » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:02 pm

MDDad wrote: That's just it. The bookies are subjectively setting the odds and pointspreads to split the bets, then adjusting them as the bets roll in. It's the guys using algorithms to decide which side to bet who are lucky to break even.
The bookies algorithm may be simple, but it works.

As far as the subjectivity of the lines, usually the lines are derived from past performance of the betting clientele. People often think that betting lines are predictions on the games themselves when in fact they are predictions on the betting public.

Plus I doubt if there are many serious mathematicians who are developing algorithms to predict human games. Random gaming--like casino gambling--yes, but not ball games. Just starting a book called Competition: The Birth of a New Science. Just started--it's amazing what we do know and what we don't know about the mathematics of competition.
MDDad wrote:
Kind of like a good fart.
Yes, but should be kept to yourself in a crowded elevator.

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by MDDad » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Fordama wrote:People often think that betting lines are predictions on the games themselves when in fact they are predictions on the betting public.
That's absolutely right. The lines are set in an attempt to get 50% of the betting volume on either side. I actually did a research project on football odds and pointspreads in my MBA program. It turns out teams that are successful and nationally popular (e.g. Notre Dame or the Dallas Cowboys) continue to draw inordinate betting support for a year or two after their declines. This often results in an unwarranted shift in their pointspreads and represents one of the few opportunities for consistently cashing in on betting emotions.


Fordama wrote:Yes, but should be kept to yourself in a crowded elevator.
Unless you can successfully shift the blame to one of the other occupants.

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by tLIB » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:08 pm

Great video seeing red. I am glad other people are interested in the same things I am. There were some great shows on Netflix Instant about space. There is one really good one left: "How the Universe Works."

I agree with Luca: the more we learn, the more questions we have. One of those Netflix shows examined the history of our discovery going back to when we thought the world was flat. In 1929 Hubble discovered that the galaxies were moving away from each other. This unexpected discovery brought about the ultimate singularity theory - the big bang.

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Re: 10 Mind-Bending Facts about Black Holes (video link)

Post by Fordama » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:09 pm

MDDad wrote: That's absolutely right. The lines are set in an attempt to get 50% of the betting volume on either side. I actually did a research project on football odds and pointspreads in my MBA program. It turns out teams that are successful and nationally popular (e.g. Notre Dame or the Dallas Cowboys) continue to draw inordinate betting support for a year or two after their declines. This often results in an unwarranted shift in their pointspreads and represents one of the few opportunities for consistently cashing in on betting emotions.
That would be a fascinating study. So many possible questions in that field.

How much does the oddsmaker consider the betting money of experienced gamblers versus casual gamblers?
What kind of observations about how and why the lines move after they're first set?
How illegal bookmakers set lines compared to legal bookmakers?
MDDad wrote: Unless you can successfully shift the blame to one of the other occupants.
Yes but I have an ethical problem with blaming others for my farts. Unless it's the dog.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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