Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

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GOODave
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Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:06 am

Is everyone just walking on egg shells and reluctant to bring this up or have we just not gotten around to it yet?

I suppose if it is to be, it's up to me, so let's get it going here:
Q&A: Stem cell study enters new era
By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY


At a White House ceremony attended by scientific leaders, President Obama on Monday ordered the National Institutes of Health to issue guidelines removing the Bush administration's limits on human embryonic stem cell research funding within 120 days.
Obama also ordered the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy — in a "Scientific Integrity" memorandum — to create a plan to fill federal science positions solely based on merit and to insulate them from political interference. "Political officials should not suppress or alter scientific or technological findings," says the memorandum...
There is much more to the article on USA Today if you'd care to look but before (or maybe after) you do, I'd like to make a couple of points here:

When Obama, in making that announcement, called for "appropriate safeguards," allowing research "only when it is both scientifically worthy and responsibly conducted. We will develop strict guidelines, which we will rigorously enforce, because we cannot ever tolerate misuse or abuse," he did not (that I could see) obviate the potential that donating fertilized eggs to a laboratory could now become similar to a college student giving blood so he can have enough money to party the next night.

DO YOU see any safeguards against "harvesting embryos" becoming a new and profitable cottage industry?

Do I also understand correctly that recent advances in the use of ADULT stem cells (that do not require depriving any human potential) make the use of ESC's unnecessary? Don't they now have ASC's that behave like ESC's?

O.K., now RELEASE the HOUNDS...

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Fordama
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Fordama » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:43 am

My favorite passage in any article I've read about this:
Researchers said the new president's message was clear: Science, which once propelled men to the moon, again matters in American life.
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Notorious » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:54 am

GOODave wrote:Is everyone just walking on egg shells and reluctant to bring this up or have we just not gotten around to it yet?

I suppose if it is to be, it's up to me, so let's get it going here:



There is much more to the article on USA Today if you'd care to look but before (or maybe after) you do, I'd like to make a couple of points here:

When Obama, in making that announcement, called for "appropriate safeguards," allowing research "only when it is both scientifically worthy and responsibly conducted. We will develop strict guidelines, which we will rigorously enforce, because we cannot ever tolerate misuse or abuse," he did not (that I could see) obviate the potential that donating fertilized eggs to a laboratory could now become similar to a college student giving blood so he can have enough money to party the next night.

DO YOU see any safeguards against "harvesting embryos" becoming a new and profitable cottage industry?

Do I also understand correctly that recent advances in the use of ADULT stem cells (that do not require depriving any human potential) make the use of ESC's unnecessary? Don't they now have ASC's that behave like ESC's?

O.K., now RELEASE the HOUNDS...
I believe my bio professor said they have been able to successfully use ASC's but it's a much more expensive process and it still isn't consistent. It doesn't work anywhere near efficient enough yet to solely rely on them.
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:56 am

Fordama wrote:My favorite passage in any article I've read about this:
So, does that mean science did not matter to President Bush? Seems to me by limiting the amount of ESC's available, he pretty much FORCED science to come up with other alternatives ... and you know what? THEY DID!

Most all of that crap I've heard from the left and far left that criticizes Bush while praising Obama for this move has been manipulative and mostly manufactured hyperbole with no small amount of rhetoric.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:57 am

Notorious wrote: I believe my bio professor said they have been able to successfully use ASC's but it's a much more expensive process and it still isn't consistent. It doesn't work anywhere near efficient enough yet to solely rely on them.
that was not my understanding at all, but there is BOUND to be someone in here who knows more about it than I do.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Fordama » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:01 am

GOODave wrote: So, does that mean science did not matter to President Bush?
Pretty much. He didn't have much use for scientificator types.
GOODave wrote:Most all of that crap I've heard from the left and far left that criticizes Bush while praising Obama for this move has been manipulative and mostly manufactured hyperbole with no small amount of rhetoric.
I could care less about "the left." I care about scientific development.

So complain away about "the left," as it doesn't have any bearing on this issue.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:17 am

Fordama wrote:Pretty much. He didn't have much use for scientificator types.

I could care less about "the left." I care about scientific development.

So complain away about "the left," as it doesn't have any bearing on this issue.

Fordama
You seem to be missing a lot of my points lately.

I was complaining about the left's rhetoric. It has a lot to do with "this issue" because they are the ones pushing ESC research. You support the left's advocacy on "this issue" because you DO see value down the road and you do NOT see any concern over the use of ESC's ... but you don't get to wrap yourself in a shroud and pretend politics doesn't play a hand here, even as ardently as President Obama would like it to not appear so.

dave

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Fordama » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:34 am

GOODave wrote: You seem to be missing a lot of my points lately.

I was complaining about the left's rhetoric.
Complain away. It doesn't have any bearing on the important issues, though.

GOODave wrote:It has a lot to do with "this issue" because they are the ones pushing ESC research.
No, scientists and the medical industry are pushing it. The only reason "the left" is involved is because "the right" decided to make suppressing science an issue.
GOODave wrote:You support the left's advocacy on "this issue" because you DO see value down the road and you do NOT see any concern over the use of ESC's .
Nope, sure don't. "The left's advocacy" is simply a reaction to the far right. Of course, it should be mentioned that by your definitions on this issue, "the left" would include a large number of Republicans and conservatives. You know, like those crazy Marxists, the Reagan family. John McCain. Many other Republican politicians have expressed support--often in letters or petitions to the former President--in support of ESC research.

The idea that it is a "leftist" notion is purely driven by the far right Christian factions in this country. Bush's ban was all about toadying up to them.
GOODave wrote:.. but you don't get to wrap yourself in a shroud and pretend politics doesn't play a hand here, even as ardently as President Obama would like it to not appear so.
The politics on the issue were generated by the conservative Christian community, not by "the left" or by scientists themselves.

Fordama
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:52 am

Fordama wrote:I was complaining about the left's rhetoric.
Complain away. It doesn't have any bearing on the important issues, though. No, scientists and the medical industry are pushing it. The only reason "the left" is involved is because "the right" decided to make suppressing science an issue.[/quote]"Supressing Science?"

No little amount of hyperbole in your sandwich today, is there. :yawn
Fordama wrote: "The left's advocacy" is simply a reaction to the far right. Of course, it should be mentioned that by your definitions on this issue, "the left" would include a large number of Republicans and conservatives. You know, like those crazy Marxists, the Reagan family. John McCain. Many other Republican politicians have expressed support--often in letters or petitions to the former President--in support of ESC research.
By "my" definition, eh?

The salient point you seem to have missed is that it has been left or far left politicians whom I've heard talking about this the last 24 hours. THOSE were the people on who's comments I was commenting. Are you not keeping up because you're rushed for time?
Fordama wrote:The idea that it is a "leftist" notion is purely driven by the far right Christian factions in this country. Bush's ban was all about toadying up to them.
Right. Obviously because the "far right" agreed with his decision and you disagreed with his decision, It had NOTHING whatever to do with the man supporting his own values.

WHAT'ever... :roll:
Fordama wrote:The politics on the issue were generated by the conservative Christian community, not by "the left" or by scientists themselves.
Help me understand: Someone expresses an opinion or a preference with which you disagree, and they have to be "...the conservative Christian community" and, therefore, onerous and disdained.

Again, you don't get to wrap yourself in a shroud of "Only science, no politics here" because the issue of ESC's has both proponents and opponents. Science does not exist in a political or philosophical vacuum regardless of how ardently they would prefer to or how honestly they just want to achieve results.

Actions and behaviors and choices all bear consequences. You are kidding yourself if you believe you can insulate yourself from them.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Fordama » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:01 am

GOODave wrote:
Help me understand: Someone expresses an opinion or a preference with which you disagree, and they have to be "...the conservative Christian community" and, therefore, onerous and disdained.
No. Just that decision. It was the far right Christians and Catholics that I disdain when it comes to this issue.

Fordama
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by not4u13 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:24 pm

This issue shouldn't be about politics at all. It shouldn't be about "left" vs. "right". It should be about science and what (if any) boundaries there should be on scientific advances.

One thing that seems to go missing in these debates is that morality is not a "right" or "left" issue either. Both the "right" and the "left" are guided by morality.

What the issue really seems to be is whether or not your personal morals align with that of our political leaders. That is what generally sparks the most debate and in this country, debate is a healthy means of providing guidance to our leadership. Notice I said "guidance" and not "direction". Our leaders provide the people with direction (not the other way around) based on the guidance that the people provide to our leaders. It is sort of like saying ... I am in California and I want to go to New York. We rely on our leaders to map the way.

With respect to this particular issue of ESC research, our leaders have heard the people when they say they want more options for dealing with chronic diseases and they expect the USA to be a world leader in the area of medical research. Our leaders are now using their own moral compass and the guidance provided by the people to set a new course that includes the ESC research. Some will say that there is no way that any moral compass can pave the way for ESC research, but that is a matter of opinion ... and one that is not based on politics ... but based on ones own morality.

In sort, there is the science ... and we can discuss and debate that ... or there is the morality ... and we can discuss and debate that ... but making this into a political issue isn't worthy of a discussion or a debate.
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by Sputnik » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:03 pm

Fordama wrote:No, scientists and the medical industry are pushing it [ESC research]. The only reason "the left" is involved is because "the right" decided to make suppressing science an issue.

The left's advocacy" is simply a reaction to the far right. Of course, it should be mentioned that by your definitions on this issue, "the left" would include a large number of Republicans and conservatives. You know, like those crazy Marxists, the Reagan family. John McCain. Many other Republican politicians have expressed support--often in letters or petitions to the former President--in support of ESC research.

The idea that it is a "leftist" notion is purely driven by the far right Christian factions in this country. Bush's ban was all about toadying up to them.

The politics on the issue were generated by the conservative Christian community, not by "the left" or by scientists themselves.

Fordama
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by SLK230 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:18 pm

I think it is great.

Let science find whatever is discoverable. We have come out of the dark ages.
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:25 pm

Fordama wrote:No. Just that decision. It was the far right Christians and Catholics that I disdain when it comes to this issue.

Fordama
This issue ... abortion ... creationism ...

There are a whole host of issues you're not willing to let those with whom you disagree express.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:31 pm

not4u13 wrote:This issue shouldn't be about politics at all. It shouldn't be about "left" vs. "right". It should be about science and what (if any) boundaries there should be on scientific advances.

One thing that seems to go missing in these debates is that morality is not a "right" or "left" issue either. Both the "right" and the "left" are guided by morality.

What the issue really seems to be is whether or not your personal morals align with that of our political leaders. That is what generally sparks the most debate and in this country, debate is a healthy means of providing guidance to our leadership. Notice I said "guidance" and not "direction". Our leaders provide the people with direction (not the other way around) based on the guidance that the people provide to our leaders. It is sort of like saying ... I am in California and I want to go to New York. We rely on our leaders to map the way.

With respect to this particular issue of ESC research, our leaders have heard the people when they say they want more options for dealing with chronic diseases and they expect the USA to be a world leader in the area of medical research. Our leaders are now using their own moral compass and the guidance provided by the people to set a new course that includes the ESC research. Some will say that there is no way that any moral compass can pave the way for ESC research, but that is a matter of opinion ... and one that is not based on politics ... but based on ones own morality.

In sort, there is the science ... and we can discuss and debate that ... or there is the morality ... and we can discuss and debate that ... but making this into a political issue isn't worthy of a discussion or a debate.
All well and good ... UNLESS one believes science has to kill unborn children in order to make their advancements.

My dad died of Parkinsons with complications from emphysema (two diseases which are frequently mentioned as potentially being helped by ESC). I don't believe my father would have wanted a "cure" at the expense of what he believed was another, and more innocent, human life. I know I would not.

The only reason it's "political" is because our last president believed this as well. He further believed he was sparing human life by prohibiting the establishment of a market for fertilized eggs (aka, "human beings" to many of us). Like I told Fordy, we do not have the luxury of shielding "science" from the reason and emotions of those around it, even if or when we disagree with those reasons or emotions. "Science" doesn't exist in a pristine vacuum: It's part of the world, just like you and me.

dave

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by crayegg » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:35 pm

We're not talking about unborn children. We are talking about medical waste from legal abortions that is otherwise incinerated. You sound like you're preventing embryos being stolen from unwilling mothers. Ridiculous.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:36 pm

Fordama wrote:No. Just that decision. It was the far right Christians and Catholics that I disdain when it comes to this issue.

Fordama
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by GOODave » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:53 pm

crayegg wrote:We're not talking about unborn children. We are talking about medical waste from legal abortions that is otherwise incinerated. You sound like you're preventing embryos being stolen from unwilling mothers. Ridiculous.
No, not at all: YOU might be talking about "medical waste from legal abortions" but that is but a very small SMALL pool of fertilized eggs. What most folks talk about when speaking of harvesting fertilized eggs for the purpose of Embryonic Stem Cell research are the "extra" eggs that were fertilized and frozen and are stored somewhere in an In Vitro Fertilization facility somewhere.

But you raise a good point in that, obviously, you don't believe a fertilized egg to be a human being so taking part on the "let science ring" side of the argument is no issue for you. I, on the other hand, believe (as ardently as you DISbelieve) that a fertilized egg is a human being so, for me, letting unbridled science advance when it means sacrificing the life of a human being who had neither choice nor representation in the decision is as onerous as if a scientist wanted to disembowel you to see how our pancreas works and maybe develop a cure for diabetes.

You (plural) do not have to agree with me, that is not my point: I simply want to convey to you the issue as pro-life advocates see it.

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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by ND7 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:10 pm

GOODave wrote:
No, not at all: YOU might be talking about "medical waste from legal abortions" but that is but a very small SMALL pool of fertilized eggs. What most folks talk about when speaking of harvesting fertilized eggs for the purpose of Embryonic Stem Cell research are the "extra" eggs that were fertilized and frozen and are stored somewhere in an In Vitro Fertilization facility somewhere.

But you raise a good point in that, obviously, you don't believe a fertilized egg to be a human being so taking part on the "let science ring" side of the argument is no issue for you. I, on the other hand, believe (as ardently as you DISbelieve) that a fertilized egg is a human being so, for me, letting unbridled science advance when it means sacrificing the life of a human being who had neither choice nor representation in the decision is as onerous as if a scientist wanted to disembowel you to see how our pancreas works and maybe develop a cure for diabetes.

You (plural) do not have to agree with me, that is not my point: I simply want to convey to you the issue as pro-life advocates see it.
Thank you Dave. That is the point I was going make. The whole argument, much like the abortion debate, comes down to the issue of human life and when it begins. Those who believe it begins at conception, as I do, can't view this as a scientific boon, but as a tragedy.
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Re: Embryonic Stem Cell Research...

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:43 pm

ND7 wrote: Thank you Dave. That is the point I was going make. The whole argument, much like the abortion debate, comes down to the issue of human life and when it begins. Those who believe it begins at conception, as I do, can't view this as a scientific boon, but as a tragedy.
Amen to that, brother.
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