Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

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Fordama
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Fordama » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:49 am

Are you for open borders? No
Are you for decriminalizing marijuana, and drugs in general? Marijuana
Do you favor allowing businesses to set their own smoking policies? No
Should minimum drinking ages be eliminated? No
Should state funding of education allow for parental choice of school? No
Should it be against the law to sell a body part/organ? Don't know.
Is free and unfettered trade to be the rule? Not completely
Should the state recognize gay marriage if it must recognize marriage? Yes.
Is the Patriot act an abomination? It's not good.
Does the state have a legitimate interest in a terminally ill person's choice to end his/her life? A little bit.
Should you be able to arm yourself to the hilt? No WMD.
Should restrictions against prostitution and gambling be eliminated? Eased.

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:33 am

Fordama wrote:Are you for open borders? No
Are you for decriminalizing marijuana, and drugs in general? Marijuana
Do you favor allowing businesses to set their own smoking policies? No
Should minimum drinking ages be eliminated? No
Should state funding of education allow for parental choice of school? No
Should it be against the law to sell a body part/organ? Don't know.
Is free and unfettered trade to be the rule? Not completely
Should the state recognize gay marriage if it must recognize marriage? Yes.
Is the Patriot act an abomination? It's not good.
Does the state have a legitimate interest in a terminally ill person's choice to end his/her life? A little bit.
Should you be able to arm yourself to the hilt? No WMD.
Should restrictions against prostitution and gambling be eliminated? Eased.
No surprise that we agree on most of these.

Public Education should teach Creationism or Intelligent Design alongside Evolution as viable theories of origins #-o

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Parrotpaul » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:59 pm

Fordama wrote:Are you for open borders? No
Are you for decriminalizing marijuana, and drugs in general? Marijuana
Do you favor allowing businesses to set their own smoking policies? No
Should minimum drinking ages be eliminated? No
Should state funding of education allow for parental choice of school? No
Should it be against the law to sell a body part/organ? Don't know.
Is free and unfettered trade to be the rule? Not completely
Should the state recognize gay marriage if it must recognize marriage? Yes.
Is the Patriot act an abomination? It's not good.
Does the state have a legitimate interest in a terminally ill person's choice to end his/her life? A little bit.
Should you be able to arm yourself to the hilt? No WMD.
Should restrictions against prostitution and gambling be eliminated? Eased.
I can get behind these as well.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

Pinky
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Pinky » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:08 am

GOODave wrote:Public Education should teach Creationism or Intelligent Design alongside Evolution as viable theories of origins[/i] #-o
Or how about we just get the public out of education?

Progressives love public education because public education is a fantastically effective means for disseminating and propagating the ideals of loyalty and personal subservience to the state. Public education is about creating good citizens, not about creating educated individuals.

Creationism and intelligent design have nothing to do with what is wrong with public education. Public education is insidious because it foremost promotes the agenda and interest of the state, not because it fails to teach your particular metaphysical delusions.

The reason public education will persist is because the conservatives love public education for the same reasons the progressives love public education. The religious among them may bitch and moan about creationism, but in the end they also love the idea that the state has the minds and hearts of our youth firmly under its eye and control.

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kramer
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by kramer » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:35 pm

Pinky wrote:
Progressives love public education because public education is a fantastically effective means for disseminating and propagating the ideals of loyalty and personal subservience to the state.
Good job! Couldn't agree more...

Kramer

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:01 pm

Pinky wrote:Or how about we just get the public out of education?

Progressives love public education because public education is a fantastically effective means for disseminating and propagating the ideals of loyalty and personal subservience to the state. Public education is about creating good citizens, not about creating educated individuals.

Creationism and intelligent design have nothing to do with what is wrong with public education. Public education is insidious because it foremost promotes the agenda and interest of the state,
=D> THIS part I completely agree with and, I might add, it is an insidious strategy to, now, start saying stuff I agree with: Are you just building a false sense of security, Pink?
Pinky wrote:not because it fails to teach your particular metaphysical delusions.
This piece is unnecessary to your argument, but I understand why you felt you had to throw it in: Never pass up an opportunity to disparage my beliefs...I wouldn't either so you're in good company. Besides, I was being facetious about teaching ID and/or Creationism in Public Schools: I'm well aware it will not happen in my lifetime.
Pinky wrote:The reason public education will persist is because the conservatives love public education for the same reasons the progressives love public education. The religious among them may bitch and moan about creationism, but in the end they also love the idea that the state has the minds and hearts of our youth firmly under its eye and control.
This part is just your wishful thinking, Pink. True conservatives (NOT the brand we have in the whitehouse today) favor less dependence on the government: It is exactly why I applaud your suggestion to get the government out of the education business. Privatize the whole industry: THAT would resolve most, if not all, the problems I currently see.

So, I give you TWO thumbs up and if you work on that whole disparaging my beliefs thing, you'll get the third.

;)

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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Pinky » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:08 pm

GOODave wrote:... Never pass up an opportunity to disparage my beliefs...
Oh come on GOODave, you set the bait and now you fault me for taking it.
GOODave wrote:...True conservatives (NOT the brand we have in the whitehouse today) favor less dependence on the government...
I'm begining to think that true conservatives and true Christians have a thing in common; both are the brand you smoke. True liberalism is the brand I smoke.

The GOP has co-opted conservatism to mean themselves; something very different from what I think you have in mind. The brand of conservatives we have in the Whitehouse is exactly GOP conservatism. There is only one GOP candidate that comes close to expressing ideas advocating small government, Ron Paul; the clear libertarian amongst various authoritarians of similar shades. The popular candidates in the Republican race are authoritarians. If you are a conservative that considers the Whitehouse not your brand then you are not a GOP conservative and you are part of a small minority.

Why don't you just give up calling yourself a conservative? If every time you call yourself a conservative you find it necessary to qualify by calling yourself a true conservative then maybe it's time to get out of the GOP; the benefit is that you will no longer need to apologize. I'd suggest you consider libertarianism, but I don't think you'd fit well there either.

Anyway, having considered your regular qualifications of true conservatism this and true Christian that I've come to see that I need to tone down, if not stop, going on about how progressives have co-opted the liberal identity. The world has its own understanding of what a Christian, a Conservative, and yes, a Liberal is, It's easier for us to work with the world's labels and meanings than to work against them. I'll work with being a libertarian and leave being a Liberal to the progressives.

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:31 am

Pinky wrote:Oh come on GOODave, you set the bait and now you fault me for taking it.
=D> VERY good, Pink. O.K., you got me on that one. Mea culpa...
Pinky wrote:I'm begining to think that true conservatives and true Christians have a thing in common; both are the brand you smoke. True liberalism is the brand I smoke.
I agree, but it's much more than "the brand [we] smoke" ... Although true conservatives, as a group, are much larger than their sub-group, "Evangelicals," the two do share a lot of similar ideologies, including positions on (no surprises here) abortion, homosexual "rights," the size and invasiveness of government, and economics.
Pinky wrote:The GOP has co-opted conservatism to mean themselves; something very different from what I think you have in mind. The brand of conservatives we have in the Whitehouse is exactly GOP conservatism.
Could not agree more.
Pinky wrote:There is only one GOP candidate that comes close to expressing ideas advocating small government, Ron Paul; the clear libertarian amongst various authoritarians of similar shades.
And Mike Huckabee and the former candidate, Sam Brownback...but he's already washed out.
Pinky wrote:The popular candidates in the Republican race are authoritarians. If you are a conservative that considers the Whitehouse not your brand then you are not a GOP conservative and you are part of a small minority.
Again, agreed; and I've been in this minority for a long time. My enthusiasm is, back in the '04 election, this minority started to figure out what they could accomplish if they got involved. I think we've yet to see all that can be accomplished with the true conservatives fully engaged and mobilized.
Pinky wrote:Why don't you just give up calling yourself a conservative? If every time you call yourself a conservative you find it necessary to qualify by calling yourself a true conservative then maybe it's time to get out of the GOP; the benefit is that you will no longer need to apologize. I'd suggest you consider libertarianism, but I don't think you'd fit well there either.
That's the trouble, Pink: True conservatives not ONLY don't have a descriptive name for themselves, but they also don't completely fit anywhere. We've been abandoned (as you note) by the GOP, we certainly can't go over to the Democrats, and the Libertarians, while much closer, can't seem to field a candidate with any amount of credibility or electability. That leaves "independent" who, also, suffer from candidates with unelectivitis.
Pinky wrote:Anyway, having considered your regular qualifications of true conservatism this and true Christian that I've come to see that I need to tone down, if not stop, going on about how progressives have co-opted the liberal identity. The world has its own understanding of what a Christian, a Conservative, and yes, a Liberal is, It's easier for us to work with the world's labels and meanings than to work against them. I'll work with being a libertarian and leave being a Liberal to the progressives.
You[re much more magnanimous than I, Pink. While I agree it's easier to go along, I see the hypocrisy in the attempt to dupe the public into thinking a "liberal" is a "progressive" so I cannot resist pointing that out and/or deriding it when I see it...at least for now. Maybe I'll simmer down later on...

dave

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SLK230
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by SLK230 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:07 am

[quote="GOODave"][/quote]

But Dave they are not equal theories. 1 is based in science the other is based in the Supernatural".

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:29 am

SLK230 wrote:
But Dave they are not equal theories. 1 is based in science the other is based in the Supernatural".
First, Al, I was being facetious trying to get a rise out of Fordy when I said that (he didn't take the bait)...

Second, you don't know what it's based on or anything about it but what you read in the media: You've never taken to study the theory.

Third, isn't that what "education" is all about Give it all to them and let the teachers guide them in figuring out what is real and what isn't? God forbid we should help public school students become critical thinkers.[-X

dave

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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Pinky » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:09 am

GOODave wrote:... isn't that what "education" is all about Give it all to them and let the teachers guide them in figuring out what is real and what isn't? ...
I wouldn't say it is quite that simple. Education really isn't about letting students figure it out, the real from the unreal or anything else. We want our children to develop critical thinking skills; which does require exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. However, a well guided education implies exposure to different ideas in the realm of the subject matter at hand. There may well be a curriculum wherein the relative merits of scientific inquiry and metaphysical postulates are rightly considered, perhaps in a philosophy class. Mathematics is the study of symbolic logic. Science is the study of the physical world. The supernatural is incongruent within the frame of a science class, as much so as it would be in the frame of a mathematics class.

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SLK230
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by SLK230 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:19 am

GOODave wrote:First, Al, I was being facetious trying to get a rise out of Fordy when I said that (he didn't take the bait)...

Second, you don't know what it's based on or anything about it but what you read in the media: You've never taken to study the theory.

Third, isn't that what "education" is all about Give it all to them and let the teachers guide them in figuring out what is real and what isn't? God forbid we should help public school students become critical thinkers.[-X

dave
Dave even you have admitted that it is not science as it is a totally faith based belief.

If we are going to teach totally faith based beliefs then of course we can include Astrology, numerology, The Flying Spaghetti Monster and voodoo.

Sorry Dave but public schools should limit themselves to science not religion.

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SLK230
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by SLK230 » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:33 am

Pinky wrote: I wouldn't say it is quite that simple. Education really isn't about letting students figure it out, the real from the unreal or anything else. We want our children to develop critical thinking skills; which does require exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. However, a well guided education implies exposure to different ideas in the realm of the subject matter at hand. There may well be a curriculum wherein the relative merits of scientific inquiry and metaphysical postulates are rightly considered, perhaps in a philosophy class. Mathematics is the study of symbolic logic. Science is the study of the physical world. The supernatural is incongruent within the frame of a science class, as much so as it would be in the frame of a mathematics class.
Exactly right Pinky =D>

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Post by The Skeptic » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:37 am

I agree with both Pinky and Slk230. Both of their answers are very logical. :)

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:51 pm

Pinky wrote: I wouldn't say it is quite that simple. Education really isn't about letting students figure it out, the real from the unreal or anything else. We want our children to develop critical thinking skills; which does require exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. However, a well guided education implies exposure to different ideas in the realm of the subject matter at hand. There may well be a curriculum wherein the relative merits of scientific inquiry and metaphysical postulates are rightly considered, perhaps in a philosophy class. Mathematics is the study of symbolic logic. Science is the study of the physical world. The supernatural is incongruent within the frame of a science class, as much so as it would be in the frame of a mathematics class.
But you've left out the crossroads of what you call supernatural and the physical: The point where the Supernatural (that's God, for those having difficulty following) creates the physical.

That is the point in which I choose to put my faith since I was not present at the event so could not observe it.

You choose to put your faith in evolution since you were not there to observe the dawn of life rising up from non-life.

But, all that aside, I can't believe you guys want to turn this into a "creation/ID vs. Evolution" thread or a "teach ID in the public schools" thread when I was only being facetious with Fordama.
#-o
dave

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GOODave
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by GOODave » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:55 pm

SLK230 wrote:
Dave even you have admitted that it is not science as it is a totally faith based belief.
No, I haven't Al. Further, you can point to NO words from my keyboard that say it's totally faith-based.

That's how SLK230 wants it to be so you can disdain it from your empiricial high horse. But I've given you a lot of physical evidence, textual evidence, and archaeological evidence of the existence of God and/or the clarity and truth of the Bible, none of which is faith based.

What I have said, repeatedly, is that your physical evidence will only carry you so far in a quest to know God. At some point, I've told you (and others), you have to use faith. Up until that point, however, there is all the evidence even you would want, should you ever choose to seek it out and review it.
SLK230 wrote:If we are going to teach totally faith based beliefs then of course we can include Astrology, numerology, The Flying Spaghetti Monster and voodoo.

Sorry Dave but public schools should limit themselves to science not religion.
Ah, of course: What was I thinking. Let's just leave the kids in that dark, fearful little box of what you prefer...It's safe, they're protected from thoughts, opinions, ideologies and even facts you don't like and/or of which you are afraid...

Good plan. God forbid they should be allowed to decide something for themselves. Seems to me that is the plan that brought public education down to this level in the first place.

If it is as mythical and non-existent as you claim, it escapes me exactly what you're so afraid of.

dave

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Fordama
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Fordama » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:27 pm

GOODave wrote: But I've given you a lot of physical evidence, textual evidence, and archaeological evidence of the existence of God and/or the clarity and truth of the Bible, none of which is faith based.
Actually, you can't give an evidence of the existence of a god. All you can do is give evidence that there have been people who have believed in a god for quite some time.

I'm willing to believe that people have believed in the existence of god for a few thousand years. Of course, that doesn't make the existence of any deity more likely.

Fordama

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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Pinky » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:23 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:...rightie or leftie. Where do you come down on some of this stuff?...
The Libertarians think the paradigm of left and right is insufficient to adequately scope one's political philosophy. Libertarians have added another dimension that illuminates one's regard for authoritarianism vs anarchism.

The most compelling reason to focus on just left and right is that it serves to benefit the Democratic and Republican parties. Both have established themselves as putatively representing left and right respectively. Therefore, narrowing the question to left or right effectively assigns political affiliation to the respondent as either Democrat or Republican.

This is not to suggest that the Political Compass test doesn't serve the interest of its promoter, the Libertarian party. Anyway I scored 6.75 on the economic scale and -7.59 on the authoritarian scale; making me a libertarian of the anacho-capitalist stripe. I think I share many economic values with people who describe themselves as being on the right, but I think I also share many social values with people who describe themselves as being on the left.

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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by Pinky » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:32 pm

Fordama wrote:...I'm willing to believe that people have believed in the existence of god for a few thousand years. Of course, that doesn't make the existence of any deity more likely...
Actually, it seems reasonable that a more recently conceptualized god may be more likely. Old gods that have not yet made themselves manifest should be given less credibility than new gods only recently come under scrutiny. I'm putting my money on the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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SLK230
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Re: Righties or lefties..Where Do You Come Down?

Post by SLK230 » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:22 pm

GOODave wrote:No, I haven't Al. Further, you can point to NO words from my keyboard that say it's totally faith-based.

That's how SLK230 wants it to be so you can disdain it from your empiricial high horse. But I've given you a lot of physical evidence, textual evidence, and archaeological evidence of the existence of God and/or the clarity and truth of the Bible, none of which is faith based.

What I have said, repeatedly, is that your physical evidence will only carry you so far in a quest to know God. At some point, I've told you (and others), you have to use faith. Up until that point, however, there is all the evidence even you would want, should you ever choose to seek it out and review it.
Ah, of course: What was I thinking. Let's just leave the kids in that dark, fearful little box of what you prefer...It's safe, they're protected from thoughts, opinions, ideologies and even facts you don't like and/or of which you are afraid...

Good plan. God forbid they should be allowed to decide something for themselves. Seems to me that is the plan that brought public education down to this level in the first place.

If it is as mythical and non-existent as you claim, it escapes me exactly what you're so afraid of.

dave
Dave I guess we just have totally different definitions of the word evidence. To me it is to a scientific standard. Yours is more of a want to believe standard.

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