Real Americans

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Wabash
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Re: Real Americans

Post by Wabash » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:05 pm

Red wrote:
The truth is frustrating, patty. I understand your concern. Illegal immigration is very relevant. Business can't trade in a "relatively" stable environment when the government always get in the way.
This is one of those posts that makes you spit your bourbon onto your screen.

Business benefits from illegal immigration more than any other group. Slavery will never be legally reinstituted, but for some American businesses the millions of illegal aliens are the next best thing: Illegal foreigners accept exploitation, don't complain about hazardous conditions, work for sub-living wages and don't demand expensive benefits. Why else would a company hire a non-English speaker who cannot understand instructions?

Our history of importing foreign workers is rooted not in a true need for such labor, but because American businesses want to avoid increasing the wages of their domestic workers.

The real demand for illegal immigrant labor comes from employers who pay minimum or below legal wages, while burdening the rest of society with those social costs.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Real Americans

Post by Parrotpaul » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:10 pm

Notorious wrote: Just stop Patty. As much as I like you it kills me to see you post. I used to try and make informative posts like you then I realized about 5 years ago, no one here gives a crap about stuff like this, unless you add to one side's rhetoric, no one cares how well thought out, how well articulated or how well formed your argument is, it is all about baseless claims and crazy extremism.
Talking to them like adults is giving them far too much respect.
Yep.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Vilepagan
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Re: Real Americans

Post by Vilepagan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Notorious wrote:Just stop Patty. As much as I like you it kills me to see you post. I used to try and make informative posts like you then I realized about 5 years ago, no one here gives a crap about stuff like this, unless you add to one side's rhetoric, no one cares how well thought out, how well articulated or how well formed your argument is, it is all about baseless claims and crazy extremism.
Talking to them like adults is giving them far too much respect.
Don't listen to him patty...keep posting. :)
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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GOODave
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Re: Real Americans

Post by GOODave » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:31 pm

pattywannamack wrote:LOL, at the Bristol Palin comment saying that Obama doesn't understand how the economy works.

Let's see, does the government not provide safe borders, a legal tender, and laws to help ensure lawful transactions? I mean even if we ignore all of the infastructure and other support that the government can provide, just making it safe and possible for transactions to happen is a huge contribution that the government makes to every business in our country.

Sure, the government can be a pain with taxes that never really seem to help give back to businesses or with regulations and laws that are nonsensical and sometimes very unfair to businesses and their owners, but to say that the government didn't help in the creation of that business is highly idiotic.

As Fallstar expressed so eloquently, yes a business owner must put in a great deal of effort, ingenuity, innovation, and a whole slew of other very unique elements to get their business off the ground, but they also do owe their success to the many employees, family members, friends, business partners, customers, and even the government which helped them along the way.

I say this as the son of someone who created his own company.
So your comment about everything "government" does was in response to your perspective on Palin's comment that Obama doesn't know how the economy works?

First, most of that stuff was in place well before the Obama ascension so have nothing whatever to do with Obama's economic prowess. I'm sure most will acknowledge George Bush, despite his Harvard MBA, also did not seem to know much about how the economy works (I've said so for years), yet most or all of those "stabilities" we're in place for his administration, too.

Now, as to the context of Palin's statement, I assume she is in reference to what he has a done, since ascending to his whitehouse seat, that has had a deleterious impact on our economy... Like the trillions in new debt and the largest across the board tax increase ever...

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pattywannamack
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Re: Real Americans

Post by pattywannamack » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:00 pm

Notorious wrote: Just stop Patty. As much as I like you it kills me to see you post. I used to try and make informative posts like you then I realized about 5 years ago, no one here gives a crap about stuff like this, unless you add to one side's rhetoric, no one cares how well thought out, how well articulated or how well formed your argument is, it is all about baseless claims and crazy extremism.
Talking to them like adults is giving them far too much respect.
I know what you're getting at, and I don't really expect people to argue me properly or with points that are relevant to the context of the original topic/argument. I mainly post just to try to shed some more light and new perspectives into classical issues that people bring up. Aside from my Film classes, all I have taken have been philosophy, political science, economic, minority studies, and sociology courses (along with a few very interesting Biology and Astronomy courses for GE purposes).

Contradictory to the belief that these courses have converted me into a hardcore liberal, the one real thing that these courses have taught me is that we have to look at issues in different contexts, and that we always look at issues. with as much foresight, logic, and wisdom as possible.

In Red's other topic he's saying that the reason why 46 million Americans are in poverty is because of Obama. While I don't really care whether Obama has helped to cause the poverty or not, I contested that post because of simplistically Red choose to frame the issue of poverty. Poverty is something that has dozens of different causes and it has plagued this world since the very dawn of civilization. To say that the high rate of poverty in this country has everything to do with Obama's presidency in the last 4 years and not much to do with decades of other factors is just a terrible, simplistic way to approach that issue

We have to remember that the average reading level of our newspapers and our televised news is at the 7th grade reading level. Considering that we often try to condense huge political, social, global and economic, issues into 5 minute news snippets on television, we have to realize that we are now living in a culture where no real learning can take place. Learning can only really take place in a world where abstract thinking and logic are prevalent ( which means reading, and more specifically, reading books). Our culture is now entirely based on images and images really only exist to exude emotion. While emotion is powerful and serves as a great impetus, I think we all agree that it isn't the only thing that should be acted on. Yet, when you really analyze our media, and analyze the images, "news" reporting, and content that we receive today, it is very easy to see that everything out there is now appealing to emotion, and we have basically abandoned our call to reason, and by extension our call to learning.

So really, my only goal is try to revive logic, abstract thinking, and hopefully some civility in our everyday discourse. Do my posts take a lot of time to write? Yes. Is it frustrating when I explain macro-economics to someone, and after citing large chapters of a college text book to them, have them pretend like that macro-economic theory isn't true? Yes. Does it suck when I make a well thought out response to an argument, only to have someone move the goal post, or to respond to a small, irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the issue? Yes.

But I am not trying to win over people like that. Right now I am just trying to create juxtaposition, a juxtaposition where people see a post as rooted in logic, sound sources, and critical thinking as possible against some 7th grade rhetoric that someone is parroting, and I just want people to see the contrast. I want people to realize that the world is far more complex than the five minute news snippets that they pick up each night, or the elementary school news that they are reading each morning. I just want people to see that there's more out there and that we need to look at things with far more sophistication than just Red vs. Blue, Good vs. Bad, Christian vs. Atheist, American vs. non-American, etc.

This might all sound very romantic, but screw it as long as I still have the time to write while I am in my youth I am still going to do this.
There is nothing uglier in this world than a parent riding on the success of their child.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:15 pm

In Red's other topic he's saying that the reason why 46 million Americans are in poverty is because of Obama. While I don't really care whether Obama has helped to cause the poverty or not, I contested that post because of simplistically Red choose to frame the issue of poverty. Poverty is something that has dozens of different causes and it has plagued this world since the very dawn of civilization. To say that the high rate of poverty in this country has everything to do with Obama's presidency in the last 4 years and not much to do with decades of other factors is just a terrible, simplistic way to approach that issue

I never said that. I blame government in general and I also indicated the problem has deepened due to democratic party and yes, Obama and their propensity of hooking people on dependency of government handouts. All of this in the name of compassion.
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

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pattywannamack
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Re: Real Americans

Post by pattywannamack » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:19 pm

GOODave wrote:So your comment about everything "government" does was in response to your perspective on Palin's comment that Obama doesn't know how the economy works?

First, most of that stuff was in place well before the Obama ascension so have nothing whatever to do with Obama's economic prowess. I'm sure most will acknowledge George Bush, despite his Harvard MBA, also did not seem to know much about how the economy works (I've said so for years), yet most or all of those "stabilities" we're in place for his administration, too.

Now, as to the context of Palin's statement, I assume she is in reference to what he has a done, since ascending to his whitehouse seat, that has had a deleterious impact on our economy... Like the trillions in new debt and the largest across the board tax increase ever...
No, I am not making that in response to Bristol Palin, I am just making the point that businesses in this country intrinsically rely on the stability that the government provides (along with a whole slew of other things that can be argued as well). So yes, you are right, that stability was inherent in just about every other presidency we have had in the past 100 years or so.

Given that logic, it's not like Obama's statement was completely off base (just like it would not be off base for ANY president to make that statement), especially when you watch the speech and hear the quote in full context.



All he is saying is that "yes you did need some individual initiative to make your business happen, but you also needed to rely on a ton of other things beyond your control and if it weren't for those things your business wouldn't exist."

His speech was trying to unify Americans and to have all of us pitch in, work together, and make something great happen. He wants us to realize that we sometimes do need to rely on other people and when those other people are in trouble you have to give back.

But again, I listen to that speech through unbiased ears, I can see how it can get twisted and easily manipulated in the ears of either rhetoric.

As for the economy, I would argue the real problem has been the immense de-regulation which ultimately resulted in the collapse of our credit market. Now that our credit market has collapsed, the government is beginning to regulate it more harshly, and with these regulations, the creditors no longer know how to create a profit and thus they are super conservative with how they lend. You can ask my mom all about it. Her business has been looking for a loan for 5 years now and has never received one despite the fact that she has hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash on hand, and shows consistent profits and growth each year.
There is nothing uglier in this world than a parent riding on the success of their child.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:38 pm

Red wrote:
The truth is frustrating, patty. I understand your concern. Illegal immigration is very relevant. Business can't trade in a "relatively" stable environment when the government always get in the way.
Unfortunately, that's not true. If it wasn't for government intervention this country would have had a revolution long ago, and would not be the world power it is. I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of no minimum wage, no lunch breaks, no safety or quality standards, no limit to the work day, no public works, etc.... I like not getting sick from food and having affordable public utilities. The government isn't always good, but conservatives are blind to the necessity of government. Big government got us pretty damn far, and that's just a plain fact. It's not always good, but it's necessary.

Big government is no contradictory to capitalism and prosperity. Granted, I'm not always a fan and it's not always run efficiently, but it's necessary in most cases. Every country in the world that has any relevance in the world market and high GDP has a big government. It's not a coincidence.

FallStar
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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:39 pm

Red wrote:
No worries, Fallstar. Another personal attack. I'm sure he will get away with it.
I didn't follow that. I'm not here to attack anyone. Just trying to have some conversation while sharing my point of view and hearing those of others. Let's be friends.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:17 pm

FallStar wrote:
I didn't follow that. I'm not here to attack anyone. Just trying to have some conversation while sharing my point of view and hearing those of others. Let's be friends.
That comment was meant for somebody else. My bad.
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:21 pm

FallStar wrote:
Unfortunately, that's not true. If it wasn't for government intervention this country would have had a revolution long ago, and would not be the world power it is. I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of no minimum wage, no lunch breaks, no safety or quality standards, no limit to the work day, no public works, etc.... I like not getting sick from food and having affordable public utilities. The government isn't always good, but conservatives are blind to the necessity of government. Big government got us pretty damn far, and that's just a plain fact. It's not always good, but it's necessary.

Big government is no contradictory to capitalism and prosperity. Granted, I'm not always a fan and it's not always run efficiently, but it's necessary in most cases. Every country in the world that has any relevance in the world market and high GDP has a big government. It's not a coincidence.
You give government way too much credit. Government is neccessary for some cases. I believe the American people got us far. I believe the government has grown way to large and not worth the taxes we pay. The government used to be there to work for us. Now it's the other way around.
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

FallStar
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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:53 pm

Red wrote:
You give government way too much credit. Government is neccessary for some cases. I believe the American people got us far. I believe the government has grown way to large and not worth the taxes we pay. The government used to be there to work for us. Now it's the other way around.
You're absolutely right, to an extent.

Government is still working for you in a lot of ways every day of your life. Just because a lot of it sucks, which it does, doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of good for you.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:16 pm

FallStar wrote:
You're absolutely right, to an extent.

Government is still working for you in a lot of ways every day of your life. Just because a lot of it sucks, which it does, doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of good for you.
I have no idea what they're doing to make life good for me. It might take awhile, but I will have to think about it.
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

FallStar
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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:53 pm

Red wrote:
I have no idea what they're doing to make life good for me. It might take awhile, but I will have to think about it.
If you turned on a light switch today, look no further.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:57 pm

FallStar wrote:
If you turned on a light switch today, look no further.
So now you are telling me the government produces electricity? I don't think so. We can thank Thomas Alva Edison. Not the government.
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

FallStar
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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:10 pm

Red wrote:
So now you are telling me the government produces electricity? I don't think so. We can thank Thomas Alva Edison. Not the government.
Edison is dead, he's not producing anything.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:11 pm

FallStar wrote:
Edison is dead, he's not producing anything.
Which government agency is producing electricity other than the TVA?
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

FallStar
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Re: Real Americans

Post by FallStar » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 pm

Red wrote:
Which government agency is producing electricity other than the TVA?
They aren't producing, they are regulating. And you are benefitting.

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Re: Real Americans

Post by Red » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:24 pm

FallStar wrote:
They aren't producing, they are regulating. And you are benefitting.
Regulating what? Higher prices? AB32?
Liberalism is like an out-of-control 5 year old at McDonalds. All the talking to and admonishment won't make a difference. They have no concept of right or wrong, they are nothing more than narcissists.

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Troglodyte
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Re: Real Americans

Post by Troglodyte » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:30 pm

FallStar wrote:
If you turned on a light switch today, look no further.
Government might have sold the bonds and collected the taxes, but private industry designed and built the power plants, and runs them until this day.
I don't suffer from any mental illnesses.. I enjoy them..

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