Mass shooting in San Bernardino

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joefutbol
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by joefutbol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Brooke, because the police are not allowed inside the house, that's why. They need a warrant or have to witness illegal activity to enter and search. That's why police wouldn't have found anything anyway. How is that at all absurd?

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Parrotpaul » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:19 pm

Republicans talk tough but refuse to do anything...politics trump reality. Opinion piece from the NYT.

Investigators now believe that what initially seemed a workplace shooting in San Bernardino, Calif., was a well-planned attack by a married couple with at least some contact with Islamic extremists.

The evolving situation has forced Republican leaders and presidential candidates to contort themselves: talking tough on terrorism, yet ignoring the fact that the two were armed to the teeth with two .223-caliber assault rifles and two 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistols, and hundreds of rounds, all purchased legally.

While the nation suffered through the shock of another bloody massacre, on Thursday every Senate Republican except Mark Kirk of Illinois voted against legislation to prevent people on the F.B.I.’s consolidated terrorist watchlist from purchasing guns or explosives.

The measure has been introduced repeatedly since 2007. The Government Accountability Office has documented that over years of congressional blockage, hundreds of suspected terrorists on the watchlist bought guns.

Another bill that would have expanded background checks to gun show and online firearms sales to screen out convicted felons and the mentally ill also failed on Thursday. The four Republican senators running for president — Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul and Lindsey Graham — all turned up to vote against these common-sense measures.


<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opini ... share&_r=0
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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:23 pm

joefutbol, you either have not read the entire thread or you don't understand what has been posted. There is no argument regarding the police entering a building for an urgent situation or the requiring of a warrant. That was just a wrench that Reconquista threw in to remind everyone once again that he says he is a lawyer.

joefutbol: That's why police wouldn't have found anything anyway. How is that at all absurd?
Your statement is fascinating. Why wouldn't the police have found anything? The apartment contained thousands of rounds of ammunition, guns, 12 pipe bombs, tools for making weapons, parts for weapons, etc. If the police had gone in how could they not find all that evidence? :eh?: :shock:
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by joefutbol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:27 pm

I'm sure they would have. However, they would not have been able to enter unless the homeowner gave consent, they actually saw illegal activity from outside the home, or a warrant was issued. I'm saying none of those things would have happened so your argument that the police would have prevented the shootings if they had entered the home prior to them occurring is irrelevant.

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Parrotpaul » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:29 pm

Back at ya. Are you suggesting that I called 911 on purpose and then hung up?

Not at all...I'm suggesting your statement is bogus. Can't imagine how anyone can mistakenly dial 911 when dusting a phone.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by joefutbol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:32 pm

Her model has a 911 button on it.

Image

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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:38 pm

joefutbol: I'm saying none of those things would have happened so your argument that the police would have prevented the shootings if they had entered the home prior to them occurring is irrelevant.
BS, you don't know that. If the neighbor had called in her suspicions the police could very well have obtained a warrant. Or they could have kept the apartment under surveillance to see if they deemed the activities taking place were suspicious.

Now that this has happened your argument is even more wrong.
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by joefutbol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Brooke wrote:If the neighbor had called in her suspicions the police could very well have obtained a warrant.
You think a judge would sign off on that? "Some brown guys getting packages? Where do I sign?!!?" Uh huh.
Brooke wrote:Now that this has happened your argument is even more wrong.
Uhhhh. What ended up happening has nothing to do with my argument. They either would have followed up thoroughly, obtained a warrant, conducted surveillance, and stopped the crime, or, a doughnut-eating beat cop knocks on the door, man says his friends are helping him put together furniture he just bought, and nothing changes.... or they don't investigate it at all. I'm arguing the latter. It can't be more right or more wrong as it's a hypothetical situation and unaffected by any event that happens afterward.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:00 pm

But they were Muslim, Joe! And coming and going! And ordering stuff from Amazon! Any judge would have signed a warrant for any of those. Don't you know nothin'?
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Reconquista Primero » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:01 pm

Brooke: Please try to understand this:
Guy calls cops and says "lots of packages being delivered, people working in the garage late at night, they are Muslims" and the cops decide to pay the malfactors a visit. They don't have a warrant. They knock on the door and all of the weaponry and supplies are in the garage. Mrs. ISIS Terrorist answers the day and says "you can't come in without a warrant. Goodbye" and then closes the door, which is her right to do. How in the hell are the cops supposed to see the armory that was set up?
Another scenario: Everything as above but when Mrs. ISIS Terrorist opens the door, the cops see guns and pipe bombs on the kitchen table. They can then enter without a warrant.
Based on the facts presented, Joefutbol is correct: A warrant is unlikely to be issued.
I know you want to ignore the Constitution, but it is there for a reason.
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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:03 pm

Yes, it can be more right or wrong based on more terrorist attacks in the U.S. and around the world. Human beings learn from experience.

I prefer the police to operate from a more cautious approach in protecting our citizens. If it inconveniences someone who is engaged in suspicious activity - tough.
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Reco wrote:I know you want to ignore the Constitution, but it is there for a reason.
To Hell with your Constitution! We're talking about the rule of law here! And Muslims! And Clairvoyance!
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:12 pm

Law enforcement has all kinds of technology it can use to track what people are doing and what they are ordering and having delivered. They also have technology to track the trips they have made to the Middle East for example, where people come from such as the wife as being a Pakistani. All of this would help in obtaining a warrant if the cops believed that one was needed.

It is up to a judge's discretion so what are you guys arguing about? I am saying American citizens should err on the side of caution rather than worrying about if someone is going to call them a racist or that they are profiling - for god's sake. What could be more horrible than that? How about people murdered for no reason?
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by joefutbol » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:13 pm

More right or wrong based on more terrorist attacks? I don't think you understand. If you had a time machine and could go back and have the suspicious activity reported ONLY TWO THINGS COULD HAPPEN! They stop the attacks or they don't. Nothing else affects that scenario.

I don't entirely disagree with you about inconveniencing people, it's always important to be vigilant. But you cannot disregard the law and people's rights in order to do so.

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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:15 pm

Reconquista: I know you want to ignore the Constitution, but it is there for a reason.
You have nothing to base this statement on Reconquista! I have said nothing to warrant this mud-slinging insult from you. Keep your theatrics out of discussions, they make you look like a foolish show-off.
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:17 pm

Where have I said anything about disregarding the law joefutbol? Issuing warrants is up to a judge's discretion based on evidence and activity.

Don't start with telling falsehoods. Keep the discussion honest.
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Parrotpaul » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:19 pm

What falsehoods has Joe told?
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Reconquista Primero » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:20 pm

Brooke: Let's say the cops ignored the need for a warrant, pushed their way into the house and found the pipe bombs and other stuff in the garage. They arrest the terrorists and the prosecutor (be it DA or US Attorney) files charges. The first thing the defense does is file a motion to suppress evidence from an illegal search. The judge will probably grant the motion given the facts and the perpetrators walk free and simply press their attack some other time.
People continually whine about criminals getting off on a technicality. That "technicality" is a failure by law enforcement to follow the dictates of the Constitution.
I'd rather that law enforcement follow the Constitution and make their busts stick. That makes all of us safer.
You want to shred the Constitution because of brown people. How sad. :thumbsdown:
Just look here to see your lack of respect for the Constitution.
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Parrotpaul
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Parrotpaul » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:30 pm

:yeahthat:

...and

It is up to a judge's discretion so what are you guys arguing about? I am saying American citizens should err on the side of caution rather than worrying about if someone is going to call them a racist or that they are profiling - for god's sake. What could be more horrible than that? How about people murdered for no reason?

I have no idea how to answer your two questions, and I would guess no one else does either. Could you rephrase for better clarity... thanks?

NB...your posts are loaded with "should(s)." Those are your personal moral imperatives, and maybe they "ought to be" done according to you, but they may not be necessarily embraced by others.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Brooke
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Re: Mass shooting in San Bernardino

Post by Brooke » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:31 pm

Reconquista: You want to shred the Constitution because of brown people. How sad. :thumbsdown:
Just look here to see your lack of respect for the Constitution.
What is sad is that you are dishonest. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who lies. Go away.
Who in their right mind uses a welcome sign to mean people who would come into their home uninvited, paid by their neighbors who are using their illegal labor, overrun the neighborhood, and refuse to leave?

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