CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

MDDad
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by MDDad » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:16 pm

If one takes a step back from this whole hacking thing, and tries to set aside partisan emotions and outrage, several issues seem to come to mind.

First, hacking is wrong. But let’s not pretend that some entity in this country isn’t hacked almost every day. The results of those efforts have cost American businesses and the American economy tens of billions of dollars through the theft of intellectual property, while the monetary damage to us of having our personal confidential information hacked is almost impossible to calculate. Yet for some reason, those activities are accepted almost as a matter of course, while the hacking of the DNC is a national outrage.

Second, let’s also not pretend that the United States hasn’t influenced or otherwise pressured the selection of numerous national leaders in other countries many times in the last 70 years, if not by hacking then by some other less technological methods. That makes the uproar over this current tit-for-tat seem almost self-righteously hypocritical.

Third, I’ve not heard or read one word that even a single voter changed his mind about their presidential choice as a result of the hack. So what effect did it really have, other than making us look bad and pointing out our cyber vulnerabilities?

Fourth, I’ve also not heard or read one word claiming that a single word in a single document was altered by the hackers before the documents were released. If the contents remain in their original form, and they are damaging or embarrassing to one party or the other, is that a bad thing? While the act of obtaining them may be nefarious, is the resulting information necessarily so as well?

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Wabash
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:08 pm

Are you justifying an act of theft? That is what it seems you're doing.

Aside from the legal issues, there is a moral issue as well.

Especially when one recalls Trump asking the Russians to hack his opponents computers.

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Professor Fate
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:51 pm

This isn't like our legal system, where illegally obtained evidence is thrown out. This is more like the British legal system which, I believe, allows the illegally obtained evidence, and then after the trial is over, goes after the person who obtained the evidence illegally.

What the hacking exposed is a good thing. Russian hacking isn't.
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Professor Fate
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:59 pm

by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:08 pm

...Especially when one recalls Trump asking the Russians to hack his opponents computers.
No, he assumed her e-mails had already been hacked (probably by multiple players), and he asked the Russians, who were among the usual suspects, to bring them out in the open for all to see.
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Wabash
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:41 pm

I have this belief that taking something of others without their permission is wrong.

What was I thinking?

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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by MDDad » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:43 pm

Wabash wrote:Are you justifying an act of theft?
In a word, no. But it's not a black and white issue either. Is such theft justified when we do it, in our national interests? Was Daniel Ellsberg justified? What about Edward Snowden?

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Wabash
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:56 pm

Nope. At least Ellsberg accepted the consequences of his actions.

I'm sure it's only a coincidence that Snowden is in Russia at the same time these cyber attacks were occurring.
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by MDDad » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:21 pm

When you cavalierly say "Nope", can I assume you would dismantle the CIA and discontinue all spying and intelligence gathering activities because they are "theft"?

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Wabash
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:24 pm

I would if they are spying on Americans without due process.

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John Q. Public
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by John Q. Public » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:40 pm

Professor Fate wrote:What the hacking exposed is a good thing.
Really, the only thing of any substance that was in any of the emails was the one about the debate question. That the machine was working against Bernie was already known and the guy trying (and failing) to get his friend a job was actually in Hillary's favor. All the rest was just politics as usual.
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by not4u13 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:35 pm

I agree MDDAD that hacking does occur very frequently and that the US has done its own election manipulation in the past. Those things don't change what has occurred and how a seemingly large number of people seem to dismiss it as a yawner. It's a significant event. It marks a change in our elections process. We can no longer pretend that our election process is not vulnerable to outside influence.

It's also telling that Russia apparently really wanted one candidate over another. That should make folks sit up and take notice. Why did Russia feel it was so important to invest in the election of Trump? What do they expect to gain from this? What sort of influence do they (or may they) have over Trump?

As for the content of the messages. What disturbs me is that folks are outraged over the content. Do they not understand how politics work?
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by broman » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:48 pm

Ending Russian sanctions, officially accepting the annexation of Crimea and maybe more of Ukraine, handing the State Department over to Exxon Mobile is not our national interest.

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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:07 pm

by John Q. Public » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:40 pm

Really, the only thing of any substance that was in any of the emails was the one about the debate question. That the machine was working against Bernie was already known and the guy trying (and failing) to get his friend a job was actually in Hillary's favor. All the rest was just politics as usual.
So it had no effect on the election then?
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:11 pm

Whether it had an effect isn't the point. The point is that something was taken against the will of its rightful owner.

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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by John Q. Public » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:09 pm

Professor Fate wrote:So it had no effect on the election then?
It very well could have for some people but I can't speak for them. The Conservative press went nuts over them whether there was anything there or not, so there's no telling how the fence sitters or somebody who really didn't like Hillary but was going to bite the bullet and vote for her anyway might have reacted. From what I saw here it didn't sound like many people spent much time actually reading the emails.
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Omar Bongo » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:35 pm

not4u13 wrote:I've read this article a couple of times. It does a reasonably good job of describing what the cyber attacks were and how we know it was the Russians.
That's the same article/link/observation I posted on the previous page...the post I began with "Anybody bother to read anymore?" :wink:

So anyway, at least there's a couple of us that actually bother to research the facts...the opinions of those that don't, or won't, don't really matter...

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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Zebra » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:53 am

How exactly is anything that Russia allegedly did worse than what we have learned the NSA has been doing all over the world?
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by Wabash » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:05 am

There is a touch of irony in what the Russians have done. I'm betting there are many in Latin America who appreciate what the Russians have done.
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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by broman » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:45 am

One of the things that appears to draw Trump to Putin is the latters ability to personally profit from government. Putin is arguably the richest man in the world.

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Re: CIA: Russia Actively Involved In U.S. Election

Post by MDDad » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:52 am

not4u13 wrote:I agree MDDAD that hacking does occur very frequently and that the US has done its own election manipulation in the past. Those things don't change what has occurred and how a seemingly large number of people seem to dismiss it as a yawner. It's a significant event.
I agree, but it's a significant event with, thus far, no discernible effect.
It marks a change in our elections process.
Perhaps, but not so much as it marks our awakening to the realities of international manipulations.
We can no longer pretend that our election process is not vulnerable to outside influence.
We can longer pretend that our election process is not vulnerable to outside cyber influence. If we were ever so naive to pretend the process was never vulnerable to influence of any kind, shame on us.

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