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First Charges filed by Mueller - Page 59 - Orange County Forums

First Charges filed by Mueller

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Vilepagan
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Vilepagan » Wed May 01, 2019 10:50 am



There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Wed May 01, 2019 11:13 am

Oh, it's only beginning. And the ****'s getting deeper every time Barr (who can be indicted) answers a question. :fan:
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Tommy Tar
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Tommy Tar » Wed May 01, 2019 1:49 pm

"put to bed" was from AG Barr. Mueller, Rod Ro and AG Barr and now the Senate Judiciary Committee and I bet Barr blows off the House Judiciary Committee tomorrow. :lol:

OVER!
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Wabash
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Wabash » Wed May 01, 2019 2:37 pm

Can't wait for Barr to ignore a lawful subpoena. Should be fun. Barr might be the 2nd AG to end up in a jail cell.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby broman » Wed May 01, 2019 4:34 pm


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Vilepagan
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Vilepagan » Wed May 01, 2019 7:59 pm

There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby broman » Wed May 01, 2019 8:29 pm

Two answers from Barr that show how that the DOJ under Barr has sold it soul to Trump or at least to the power of the Executive.

Trump attempting to remove Mueller with cause because of conflicts is not the same thing as having Mueller fired. Problem with that is the "causes" Trump yapped about on Twitter were all B.S.

Trump had the right to end the Mueller investigation based on Trump's belief it was started under false pretense.

Moving back to the Haffner thread... so many more parallels.

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Thu May 02, 2019 10:56 pm

Everything old is new again.

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Wabash
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Wabash » Fri May 03, 2019 6:59 am

They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Wabash » Sun May 05, 2019 4:57 am

Manafort is in prison. Cohen reports tomorrow.
Last edited by John Q. Public on Sun May 05, 2019 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: hijack attempt removed
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Sun May 05, 2019 8:33 am

Fox is (alone in) reporting that Mueller is scheduled to appear before Congress on the 15th. Hopefully the Congresspeeps will use their time to ask the important questions instead of political grandstanding. And it would be nice if they give him an "Off Topic" button for some of the Republicans' questions.
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Sun May 05, 2019 10:10 am

And Donald's nervous about it.

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Re: "the inevitable disaster that will be the Trump Administration"

Postby John Q. Public » Mon May 06, 2019 11:06 am

Tommy Tar, Red and anyone else who thinks Donald was exonerated or that Congress should drop its investigations should read this. Over 400 former federal prosecutors agree that Donald committed felonies in trying to obstruct the Mueller investigation.

Copied from medium.com but for some reason they make it near impossible to link to.

STATEMENT BY FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS

DOJ Alumni Statement
May 6

We are former federal prosecutors. We served under both Republican and Democratic administrations at different levels of the federal system: as line attorneys, supervisors, special prosecutors, United States Attorneys, and senior officials at the Department of Justice. The offices in which we served were small, medium, and large; urban, suburban, and rural; and located in all parts of our country.

Each of us believes that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report would, in the case of any other person not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting President, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice.

The Mueller report describes several acts that satisfy all of the elements for an obstruction charge: conduct that obstructed or attempted to obstruct the truth-finding process, as to which the evidence of corrupt intent and connection to pending proceedings is overwhelming. These include:

· The President’s efforts to fire Mueller and to falsify evidence about that effort;

· The President’s efforts to limit the scope of Mueller’s investigation to exclude his conduct; and

· The President’s efforts to prevent witnesses from cooperating with investigators probing him and his campaign.

Attempts to fire Mueller and then create false evidence

Despite being advised by then-White House Counsel Don McGahn that he could face legal jeopardy for doing so, Trump directed McGahn on multiple occasions to fire Mueller or to gin up false conflicts of interest as a pretext for getting rid of the Special Counsel. When these acts began to come into public view, Trump made “repeated efforts to have McGahn deny the story” — going so far as to tell McGahn to write a letter “for our files” falsely denying that Trump had directed Mueller’s termination.

Firing Mueller would have seriously impeded the investigation of the President and his associates — obstruction in its most literal sense. Directing the creation of false government records in order to prevent or discredit truthful testimony is similarly unlawful. The Special Counsel’s report states: “Substantial evidence indicates that in repeatedly urging McGahn to dispute that he was ordered to have the Special Counsel terminated, the President acted for the purpose of influencing McGahn’s account in order to deflect or prevent scrutiny of the President’s conduct toward the investigation.”

Attempts to limit the Mueller investigation

The report describes multiple efforts by the president to curtail the scope of the Special Counsel’s investigation.

First, the President repeatedly pressured then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions to reverse his legally-mandated decision to recuse himself from the investigation. The President’s stated reason was that he wanted an attorney general who would “protect” him, including from the Special Counsel investigation. He also directed then-White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus to fire Sessions and Priebus refused.

Second, after McGahn told the President that he could not contact Sessions himself to discuss the investigation, Trump went outside the White House, instructing his former campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, to carry a demand to Sessions to direct Mueller to confine his investigation to future elections. Lewandowski tried and failed to contact Sessions in private. After a second meeting with Trump, Lewandowski passed Trump’s message to senior White House official Rick Dearborn, who Lewandowski thought would be a better messenger because of his prior relationship with Sessions. Dearborn did not pass along Trump’s message.

As the report explains, “[s]ubstantial evidence indicates that the President’s effort to have Sessions limit the scope of the Special Counsel’s investigation to future election interference was intended to prevent further investigative scrutiny of the President’s and his campaign’s conduct” — in other words, the President employed a private citizen to try to get the Attorney General to limit the scope of an ongoing investigation into the President and his associates.

All of this conduct — trying to control and impede the investigation against the President by leveraging his authority over others — is similar to conduct we have seen charged against other public officials and people in powerful positions.

Witness tampering and intimidation

The Special Counsel’s report establishes that the President tried to influence the decisions of both Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort with regard to cooperating with investigators. Some of this tampering and intimidation, including the dangling of pardons, was done in plain sight via tweets and public statements; other such behavior was done via private messages through private attorneys, such as Trump counsel Rudy Giuliani’s message to Cohen’s lawyer that Cohen should “[s]leep well tonight[], you have friends in high places.”

Of course, these aren’t the only acts of potential obstruction detailed by the Special Counsel. It would be well within the purview of normal prosecutorial judgment also to charge other acts detailed in the report.

We emphasize that these are not matters of close professional judgment. Of course, there are potential defenses or arguments that could be raised in response to an indictment of the nature we describe here. In our system, every accused person is presumed innocent and it is always the government’s burden to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. But, to look at these facts and say that a prosecutor could not probably sustain a conviction for obstruction of justice — the standard set out in Principles of Federal Prosecution — runs counter to logic and our experience.

As former federal prosecutors, we recognize that prosecuting obstruction of justice cases is critical because unchecked obstruction — which allows intentional interference with criminal investigations to go unpunished — puts our whole system of justice at risk. We believe strongly that, but for the OLC memo, the overwhelming weight of professional judgment would come down in favor of prosecution for the conduct outlined in the Mueller Report.
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Vilepagan
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Vilepagan » Mon May 06, 2019 12:42 pm

There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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John Q. Public
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Mon May 06, 2019 1:30 pm

There are parts where the OLC memo might not apply, like the witness tampering or when he gave (private citizen) Lewandowski the letter to Sessions, where he stepped out of his role as president that might be prosecutable. Whole lots of offenses that are impeachable though, and that might serve the same purpose. And there's no directive on trying a former president.

A very long but interesting write-up on the possible charges on Lawfare: https://www.lawfareblog.com/notes-muell ... ding-diary
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby broman » Mon May 06, 2019 5:30 pm

Speaking of the OLC... Barr publicly lied about it twice

Attorney General William Barr said that during a March meeting with special counsel Robert Mueller, Mueller "reiterated several times in a group meeting that he was not saying that but for the OLC [Office of Legal Counsel] opinion he would have found obstruction."

This was the latest in a series of statements from Barr in which he downplayed the role of the Justice Department guidelines against indicting a president. Barr made the same claim at his press conference before releasing the Mueller report in April.

But despite Barr’s comments, Mueller's report directly explains how this had a major impact on his internal deliberations. In effect, Mueller framed his entire obstruction investigation around the notion that he couldn't bring any charges against Trump even if he found ironclad evidence against him, because of the OLC opinion.
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ ... 7288b50cd9

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Tue May 07, 2019 8:50 pm

A WTF if ever there was one but I'll put it here, since it's related.

AG Barr now says that if Congress votes to hold him in contempt he's going to declare the Mueller report confidential.

It's been out for a week as a freaking audio book!
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Tue May 07, 2019 9:18 pm

Wabash, if all you're going to do is troll Republicans and Christians, most of us wish you'd do it somewhere else.
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Wabash
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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby Wabash » Tue May 07, 2019 9:19 pm

I'm not trolling. Just asking a question. They still whine about Hillary's emails. Yet say nothing now.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: First Charges filed by Mueller

Postby John Q. Public » Tue May 07, 2019 9:21 pm

Nobody cares about "them." "They" aren't the topic.
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