How long is too long

not4u13
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How long is too long

Post by not4u13 »

I do not tolerate sexual abuse of any kind. Nobody should. It's reprehensible. What constitutes sexual abuse is not for the abuser to decide. The big news these last few weeks has included numerous sexual misconduct allegations against people of power. Roy Moore, Al Franken, Harvey Weinstein and more. It's bad. It has led me to the question of what our responsibility is, as a society, in all of this. At the risk of sounding like I'm willing to let these folks off the hook (which I'm not), I ask the question ... how long is too long.

When taking a look at past allegations we should consider historical context, something we're not very good at. Most people don't remember much about what happened last week let alone the tone and tenor of the nation 20 years ago. We have grown to realize that even those cat-calls that used to be glamorized as an acceptable form of flattery are a form of harassment. As disgusting as it is to think of a 30 year old man asking a 16 year old out on a date, it wasn't as uncommon as it should have been considering when & where this took place. Doesn't make it right, but it should temper our reaction to it shouldn't it?

IF someone did drugs as a young adult in the 70s, should they have the same label on them as someone who did drugs as a young adult in the 90s? Not because it was more recent, but because the context was very different.

Again, not advocating to sweeping anything under the rug. Just thinking about these recent issues and the public reaction to them.
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Re: How long is too long

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Thank you, Broman, for putting these things in context. I've also posted that the passage of so much time has the added problem of trying to prove or disprove something that may or may not have happened decades ago.

Another problem is False Memory Syndrome. Here's what Wikileaks has to report on the subject:

False memory syndrome (FMS) describes a condition in which a person's identity and relationships are affected by memories that are factually incorrect but that they strongly believe.[1] Peter J. Freyd originated the term,[2] which the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF) subsequently popularized. The term is not recognized as a psychiatric illness[3] in any of the medical manuals, such as the ICD-10[4] or the DSM-5;[5] however, the principle that memories can be altered by outside influences is overwhelmingly accepted by scientists.[6][7][8][9]

False memories may be the result of recovered memory therapy, a term also defined by the FMSF in the early 1990s,[10] which describes a range of therapy methods that are prone to creating confabulations. Some of the influential figures in the genesis of the theory are forensic psychologist Ralph Underwager, psychologist Elizabeth Loftus, and sociologist Richard Ofshe.

Human memory is created and highly suggestible, and can create a wide variety of innocuous, embarrassing, and frightening memories through different techniques—including guided imagery, hypnosis, and suggestion by others.

The lost in the mall technique is a research method designed to implant a false memory of being lost in a shopping mall as a child to test whether discussing a false event could produce a "memory" of an event that did not happen. In her initial study, Elizabeth Loftus found that 25% of subjects came to develop a "memory" for the event which had never actually taken place.[21] Extensions and variations of the lost in the mall technique found that an average of one third of experimental subjects could become convinced that they experienced things in childhood that had never really occurred—even highly traumatic, and impossible events.[22]

I wonder how much the section above in red, contributes to the phenomena of so many claims coming out around the same time, instead of at random times unrelated to the others.
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Re: How long is too long

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Oh, so now False Memory Syndrome is a thing but Hillary and Brian Williams were lying about their aircraft coming under fire. FMS was brought up in both of their cases, as well. Just sayin'.
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Re: How long is too long

Post by Omar Bongo »

Is that in any way related to Fox Memory Syndrome?
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Re: How long is too long

Post by not4u13 »

FMS is an interesting argument, but one that doesn't hold a lot of water for me when it comes to these abuse allegations, especially when the memories are corroborated. The fact that accusers come out in groups is due more to the feeling of safety in numbers. Each individual feels that the person in power has control and will be believed over all others. That keeps them from coming forward, often under the false belief that they are the only one or that it was somehow their fault. When they become aware of other accusers, they feel more safe and come forward.

It's true that these memories could have been a result of FMS, but in the case of Moore, there is more than just what the women are saying. These were not just random encounters, but the situations they describe where the meetings took place are corroborated as well. It's no like Moore can say he wasn't even there or never met these women.

My concern is not so much FMS, but of the social context of the situation and how 20 years later, we as a society have stopped tolerating things that used to be commonplace. Now those abusers are no longer safe. What they thought was a "pass" is now coming back to bite them in this new context. It seems these men took calculated risks. They knew exactly what they were doing but felt it didn't matter because nobody was really going to do much about it. Would they do the same things in today's light? Maybe not. Should that be a factor in how we view them today? That's the question.
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Re: How long is too long

Post by Professor Fate »

Not4u13,

First, let me apologize for calling you Broman (not that that would be an insult). I just noticed that I did that.

I actually agree with what you are saying. I merely presented a possible alternate that should be considered.
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Re: How long is too long

Post by Omar Bongo »

So what's your estimate, if I molest a 14 year old girl about how long do I have to wait til I'm in the clear?
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Re: How long is too long

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I already answered that. Try to keep up, Omar.
by Professor Fate » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:01 pm

I don't know, maybe the statute of limitations could be a starting point. --:--
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Re: How long is too long

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Try to keep up, Prof., I'm not talking about legally...I mean how long do I have to wait until people (voters, parents, churchgoers, etc.) don't hold my prior child molestations against me personally and all is forgiven?
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Re: How long is too long

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If you're caught you're on the list for life.
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Re: How long is too long

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Which is why you threaten the kid to keep quiet...how long do I have to wait until no one cares anymore?
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Re: How long is too long

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Omar Bongo wrote:I mean how long do I have to wait until people (voters, parents, churchgoers, etc.) don't hold my prior child molestations against me personally and all is forgiven?
It probably depends on the state. In Alabama, I'd guess maybe a couple weeks.
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Re: How long is too long

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Omar Bongo wrote: Try to keep up, Prof., I'm not talking about legally...
Try to keep up, Omar. Neither am I.
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Re: How long is too long

Post by Omar Bongo »

Professor Fate wrote:I don't know, maybe the statute of limitations could be a starting point.
In my defense it's hard to keep up with someone who talks out of both sides of their mouth
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Re: How long is too long

Post by broman »

Omar Bongo wrote: .I mean how long do I have to wait until people (voters, parents, churchgoers, etc.) don't hold my prior child molestations against me personally and all is forgiven?
This is about Trump but it applies to Roy Moore...

Donald Trump is anointed by God my Indianapolis Uber driver confided. I wondered how she could support someone so greedy and self-aggrandizing, so profane and offensive to women and minorities, someone who seemed so “un-Christian” But he doesn’t have to be a Christian to be part of God’s plan. Our minister says he’s come to tear down the corrupt order just as Nebuchadnezzar did.” There are also many who believe that Mr Trump is not Nebuchadnezzar but a Cyrus.” Nebuchadnezzar, I remembered, had destroyed the first temple in Jerusalem, forcing the Jews into the Babylonian captivity.

Cyrus, the pagan Persian king who was called “the Great”, had conquered Babylon in 539 BC, freed the Jews, and returned them to Jerusalem where they would rebuild the temple. He might not have been one of God’s people, the thinking among some Christians goes, but he still served God’s plans.
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Re: How long is too long

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This is not the first time you've heard this.
by Professor Fate » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:14 pm

That last sentence explains the feelings of many of the people who voted for Trump, despite all his faults. To try and make it stop. Trump obviously is not God, but maybe he is the tool (in more ways than one) that God used, to answer those prayers.
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Re: How long is too long

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This is bigger than an election for the Senate, you support God's plans or you don't

Which is why there are Moore supporters in Alabama who say that they'll vote for him even if he is a pedophile because Ginsberg might retire soon and Roe vs. Wade is hanging in the balance...sound familiar?
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Re: How long is too long

Post by broman »

Professor Fate wrote: Trump obviously is not God, but maybe he is the tool (in more ways than one) that God used, to answer those prayers.
Omar Bongo wrote: Which is why there are Moore supporters in Alabama who say that they'll vote for him even if he is a pedophile because Ginsberg might retire soon and Roe vs. Wade is hanging in the balance...sound familiar?
Hmm... what other ideas and people did Evangelicals believe they had to spiritually support in the name of some greater cause or fighting against a greater evil?
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Re: How long is too long

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They will support candidates who oppose abortion, first and foremost. To a lesser extent, they will support candidates who either oppose gay marriage, or more universally, they will support people who will resist efforts by the government to force people who don't believe in abortion, gay marriage, or other liberal causes, to accept, and/or bankroll those causes. Being forced to accept and/or bankroll policies that go against their beliefs, is looked upon as a violation of their religious freedom.

Therefore they will support candidates who believe that the US Constitution guarantees Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.
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Re: How long is too long

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Professor Fate wrote: Being forced to accept and/or bankroll policies that go against their beliefs, is looked upon as a violation of their religious freedom.
Do you agree?
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