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Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:04 pm
by broman
not4u13 wrote: Because anyone in their "right" mind knows that Trump embellishes and don't believe him "absolutely" in the first place.
Sounds like an excuse to never have to hold Trump accountable for his lies. --:-- Why would anybody what that character flaw in their President?

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:48 pm
by Vilepagan
Agreed. =D>

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:34 pm
by MDDad
On the other hand, all presidents lie to one degree or another. If they didn't, they'd never get elected. Trump is just too stupid to be circumspect about it.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:29 pm
by Omar Bongo
Omar Bongo wrote: the really sad part of this is all the people who realize this but continue to defend him for political reasons...
...or have lowered their standards along with his to the gutter

#Sad

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:04 am
by not4u13
Vilepagan wrote:Normally I can agree with what you write Not4u, but here I think you're mistaken. If there's a problem with the truth then the person stating the falsehood is at fault not the one who points out the lie. In this case the main reason I'm "opposed" to trump is his constant lying about everything. I'm also unsure how silence about lies lends any credibility to either side.
I'm not giving him a "pass" nor should anyone else. The question we all need to ask ourselves isn't whether or not he is lying, but whether or not those lies are material to the central point. We know that this "biggest tax cut in history" isn't. Does it matter that it's not really the biggest? It's a tax cut. If you start getting into arguments about whether or not it's really the biggest in history, you're going to lose most people. If you get into the details of how the economy works to try and explain the impact, you're going to lose most people. If you're going to try and explain the math, you're going to lose most people.

The study of the election that led to this Trump presidency will be one for the ages, but the one key difference is that Trump created a brand that was very simple and resonated with people. Who wouldn't want a "great America?"
With so many people out of work and unhappy with the recent past, creating the phrase "Make America Great Again" is brilliant. Ironically it was a lot like what Obama did with "Change". One simple concept repeated over and over again. Clinton had no message.

Not all lies are created equal. Trump's lies are mostly about his ego and nobody cares that he is puffing out his chest. In fact, there are a lot of Americans that love the bravado.

I can't think of a time when there has been such a gap in the approval ratings. Republicans love this guy by a very wide margin. The approval of Democrats is in the single digits. Until we stop looking at every word this guy tweets and start looking at the bigger picture, his supports will never see the point you're trying to make.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:00 am
by John Q. Public
The question we all need to ask ourselves isn't whether or not he is lying, but whether or not those lies are material to the central point.
You don't think people blindly believing them - and vociferously defending them - makes them material?

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:15 pm
by Bick
JQP - are you talking about the extreme fringe followers, or the majority of the people...on both sides? My sense is the fringe on both sides are the ones that dominate the "news". Unfortunately, it seems anyone supporting either side gets characterized as the extreme. Really is dumb and counter-productive to do this. But I suppose it provides clicks.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:58 pm
by John Q. Public
I don't know. Breitbart readers? Hannity viewers? Fox "n" Friends viewers? People who don't believe fact checkers? People who share or like Donald's tweets (although a good many of them are probably bots)? I hope there aren't many but there do seem to be.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:44 pm
by Professor Fate
The above post is a good example of how POV affects one's concept of reality. The people mentioned above, would look at WaPost readers, NY Times readers, "The View" watchers, CNN viewers, and MSNBC viewers as extreme, and out of touch with most of America.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:59 pm
by Vilepagan
Perhaps that's a good point, but what are we supposed to think of someone who views readers of The Washington Post or The New York Times as "extreme" or "out of touch" with most of America? That's just false.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:03 pm
by Vilepagan
not4u13 wrote: I can't think of a time when there has been such a gap in the approval ratings. Republicans love this guy by a very wide margin. The approval of Democrats is in the single digits. Until we stop looking at every word this guy tweets and start looking at the bigger picture, his supports will never see the point you're trying to make.
Well, I think one point worth making is that what this guy says is generally not to be believed. If that means pointing out every single lie he tells so be it.

I'd like to know what happened to that "higher standard" we're all supposed to use when judging the conduct of our elected officials. It does seem to have been forgotten somewhere.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:26 pm
by Bick
John Q. Public wrote: I don't know. Breitbart readers? Hannity viewers? Fox "n" Friends viewers? People who don't believe fact checkers? People who share or like Donald's tweets (although a good many of them are probably bots)? I hope there aren't many but there do seem to be.
Let's cut to the chase - do you believe there is a bell shaped curve when it comes to political beliefs held by American citizens?

Image

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:38 pm
by Professor Fate
Vilepagan wrote: what are we supposed to think of someone who views readers of The Washington Post or The New York Times as "extreme" or "out of touch" with most of America?
The same thing that readers of the Washington Post and NYTimes think of Fox News viewers, and Breitbart readers, of course.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:46 pm
by Bick
Professor Fate wrote: The same thing that readers of the Washington Post and NYTimes think of Fox News viewers, and Breitbart readers, of course.
I believe the whole notion of putting people in buckets is mis-guided. I've done it myself, and it was damn stupid of me. Fell right into the trap.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:40 pm
by John Q. Public
Bick wrote:Let's cut to the chase - do you believe there is a bell shaped curve when it comes to political beliefs held by American citizens?
Yes. Break it down by issues or motivated voter/non-motivated voter and the shapes of the curves probably get a little interesting.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:44 pm
by John Q. Public
Professor Fate wrote: The same thing that readers of the Washington Post and NYTimes think of Fox News viewers, and Breitbart readers, of course.
Anyone who's become convinced that their news should come from any point of view is, by definition, being played.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:52 pm
by Professor Fate
So then you watch a variety of news reports, from both sides of the spectrum, and assume that Fox viewers, and Breitbart readers don't.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:22 pm
by John Q. Public
So then you watch a variety of news reports, from both sides of the spectrum....
I'll read editorials from both sides, but news, no. I don't watch Fox, I don't watch MSNBC, I don't read Breitbart, I don't read Mother Jones and I'm glad I'm out of KPFK's range (or at least I think I am). I prefer my news to come without bias, outrage, pomposity or sensationalism. Fox viewers and Breitbart readers don't seem to share my preference.

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:50 pm
by Omar Bongo
Professor Fate wrote: The same thing that readers of the Washington Post and NYTimes think of Fox News viewers, and Breitbart readers, of course.
How do you know what they think?

Re: Anybody going to be watching the State of the Union Address?

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:10 am
by Bick
John Q. Public wrote: Yes. Break it down by issues or motivated voter/non-motivated voter and the shapes of the curves probably get a little interesting.
Makes it challenging to have meaningful discussions if you believe the other side of the table is unobjective and/or unreasonable.