Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 19736
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:59 am

Two paragraphs from a New York Magazine article blaming Republicans - and only giving a cursory mention of Democratic NRA whores who are equally to blame - for our gun violence problem. But I thought they came pretty close to the way I see our problem. It isn't so much the guns as it is the people who own them and their reasons for owning them.
The particular tragedy that struck Florida on Wednesday was likely the product of myriad social pathologies. It is possible that in a country with just as many guns as ours – but with better systems of education and mental health; or a less cutthroat economic system and more generous welfare state; or a less troubled racial history and stronger sense of social solidarity; or a less toxic ideal of masculinity and more women in positions of power, Nikolas Cruz wouldn’t have turned Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School into a warzone this week.

But it is a certainty that if our gun ownership rate was comparable to that of our peers in the developed world, we could remain every bit as messed up as we are today, and still witness far fewer atrocities like the one Cruz perpetrated. Human beings are, ultimately, just highly intelligent apes. We’re all subject to fleeting impulses and patterns of thought that are unwise and uncontrollable. Surround enough of us with tools that can turn temporary moods into irrevocable violence, and you’re going to get a lot of irrevocable violence. In most cases, that violence will take the form of suicide; in a few, it will take the form of mass murder.
The problem is that we're a nation of barbarians. We think violence can solve our problems. And eye for an eye. Or maybe two eyes for an eye. Somebody pisses you off, you have the God-given right to smack him. Or key his car. Or burn his house down. Or shoot him. Or shoot up a school or a mall or a temple. "We" call ourselves a nation of Christians but that's situational at best. We don't forgive. We want revenge. And in the extreme, we use guns to extract that revenge.

Yes, we have far too many guns in this country. But the problem isn't so much the guns as it is the people who own them and their reasons for owning them. Deal with our national barbarism and we'll be on our way to solving the problem.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

MDDad
Posts: 12125
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:24 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by MDDad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:50 am

JQP wrote:The problem is that we're a nation of barbarians. We think violence can solve our problems. And eye for an eye. Or maybe two eyes for an eye. Somebody pisses you off, you have the God-given right to smack him. Or key his car. Or burn his house down. Or shoot him. Or shoot up a school or a mall or a temple. "We" call ourselves a nation of Christians but that's situational at best. We don't forgive. We want revenge. And in the extreme, we use guns to extract that revenge.
Thanks, JQP. You've eloquently articulated what I've tried to say before. We are a nation almost mentally ill in our obsession and glorification of guns and violence. I read not long ago that over 60% of our fiction best-sellers deal with violence, primarily perpetrated with guns. Over 70% of our television dramas deal with violence, primarily perpetrated with guns. Over 60% of our non-animated motion pictures deal with violence, primarily perpetrated by guns. While many of those books, movies and TV shows depict the violence as criminal activities, they almost invariably pile on more shootings as a socially acceptable way of achieving revenge or justice. And advances in make-up and special effects allow them to depict the results of gun violence in ever more graphic and revolting images, to the point that we've become inured to them.

Our young populace spends hundreds of millions of hours playing video games, over 90% of which depict violence and carnage committed with ever more grotesque weaponry. And let's not even mention the violence prevalent in much of rap music.

So how can we be surprised when anyone on the mental ragged edge decides it's acceptable to act out those same actions his senses have been submerged in for most of his life?

User avatar
Wabash
Posts: 24545
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:29 am
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Wabash » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am

JQP, those are good points. Citizens in other countries watch our movies and play our video games. They have the mentally ill. They practice Christianity. Yet they don't seem to massacre each other at the same frequency as us.

User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 19736
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:34 am

Most of those countries also don't have a death penalty. That doesn't mean that either method is any more or less effective. It only shows the differences in our cultures.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

User avatar
ShiftyMutt
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:46 pm

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by ShiftyMutt » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:42 am

The GOP boasts their support for law enforcement at every turn, many times insinuating that democrats don’t - but they don’t seem interested in a policeman’s point of view. How can they support the police while supporting a civilians right to own war weapons?

User avatar
Wabash
Posts: 24545
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:29 am
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Wabash » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:49 am

John Q. Public wrote: That doesn't mean that either method is any more or less effective.
Maybe. The Dickey Amendment prevents the agency responsible for public health from even studying the issue. We are condemning ourselves to repeated massacres at the hands of individuals who don't seem to enact the same level of carnage in other countries.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 19736
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:14 pm

That needs to be repealed but it doesn't change the fact that we're a country of Rednecks. We need to tweak the details but, beyond that, we need to look at the bigger problem.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

User avatar
Professor Fate
Posts: 4700
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:11 pm
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Professor Fate » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:51 pm

MDDad wrote:
Our young populace spends hundreds of millions of hours playing video games, over 90% of which depict violence and carnage committed with ever more grotesque weaponry. And let's not even mention the violence prevalent in much of rap music.

So how can we be surprised when anyone on the mental ragged edge decides it's acceptable to act out those same actions his senses have been submerged in for most of his life?
Right on the money. You beat me to it. Of course we've heard that expressed many times before, usually dismissed as coming from a bunch of old folks, out of touch with today's world.
Make Them Cry Again In 2020

MDDad
Posts: 12125
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:24 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by MDDad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:59 pm

John Q. Public wrote:That needs to be repealed but it doesn't change the fact that we're a country of Rednecks.
"Redneck" is a politically-charged label, much like "inner-city gang-banger" would have been. Perhaps you should have said we're a country of cowboys.

User avatar
Omar Bongo
Posts: 9071
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:59 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Omar Bongo » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:16 pm

Image
"Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic."
George Will

"How stupid is our country?"
Donald Trump

User avatar
Omar Bongo
Posts: 9071
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:59 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Omar Bongo » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:27 pm

1) Just 3-4% of Americans own over half the guns in this country

2) A vast majority Americans favor enhanced background checks and a ban on assault-style weapons, including NRA rank-and-file members.

3) The NRA leadership, gun & ammo manufacturers and their spineless lackeys in congress and the right-wing media are holding the rest of us hostage

4) The result is the Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale

5) rat-a-tat-tat....whoops, there goes another group of hostages
"Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic."
George Will

"How stupid is our country?"
Donald Trump

User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 19736
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:19 pm

I don't know about the assault weapons ban but I know a large majority favors stronger stronger regulations.

But the NRA practically finances Congress. I saw some numbers the other day and they were all $3-5 million for some of them. I think McCain got $10 million from them.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

User avatar
Professor Fate
Posts: 4700
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:11 pm
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Professor Fate » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:39 pm

Here's the top 20 lobbyists for 2017:

Lobbying Client Total

US Chamber of Commerce $82,190,000
National Assn of Realtors $54,530,861
Business Roundtable $27,380,000
Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America $25,847,500
Blue Cross/Blue Shield $24,330,306
American Hospital Assn $22,064,214
American Medical Assn $21,535,000
Alphabet Inc $18,140,000
AT&T Inc $16,780,000
Boeing Co $16,740,000
Open Society Policy Center $16,110,000
DowDuPont $15,877,520
National Assn of Broadcasters $15,460,000
Comcast Corp $15,310,000
Lockheed Martin $14,464,290
Amazon.com $13,000,000
Southern Co $12,970,000
National Retail Federation $12,890,000
NCTA The Internet & Television Assn $12,790,000
Oracle Corp $12,385,000

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.p ... ndexType=s

By contrast, the NRA spent $5,122,000 on lobbying in 2017.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clien ... &year=2017
Make Them Cry Again In 2020

User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 19736
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by John Q. Public » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:08 pm

But the Chamber of Commerce doesn't advocate for anything that's especially lethal.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

joefutbol
Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:28 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by joefutbol » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 pm

Professor Fate wrote:Right on the money. You beat me to it. Of course we've heard that expressed many times before, usually dismissed as coming from a bunch of old folks, out of touch with today's world.
Are you suggesting it was the millennials who produced The Wild Bunch, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and Heat? Castle Wolfenstein? Something like ten of the 25 deadliest shootings in the United States happened prior to 1991. This isn't something new. The school shootings are, but that probably has something to do with the fact that most high school seniors can legally purchase a weapon created to be used by the most powerful military in history and designed specifically to inflict as many human casualties per round as possible. Maybe.

User avatar
Professor Fate
Posts: 4700
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:11 pm
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Professor Fate » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Some good points there Joe. Another problem is that neither the Sutherland Springs shooter, nor this Florida shooter, should have been able to buy those guns, if the Air Force, and the FBI respectively, had done their jobs.
Make Them Cry Again In 2020

joefutbol
Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:28 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by joefutbol » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:39 pm

Of course they could have just ordered one off the internet in California.

User avatar
Omar Bongo
Posts: 9071
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:59 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Omar Bongo » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:50 pm

John Q. Public wrote:I don't know about the assault weapons ban but I know a large majority favors stronger stronger regulations.
"A 2017 Pew Research Center poll found that 68 percent of adults favor banning assault weapons, and 65 percent support a ban on high-capacity magazines...

...substantial numbers of gun owners supported the measures as well: 48 percent of gun owners in that poll said they would support a ban on assault style weapons, and 44 percent said they favored a ban on high-capacity magazines. A Quinnipiac poll conducted later in the year showed similar numbers."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 2b89ad0f0d

User avatar
Wabash
Posts: 24545
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:29 am
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by Wabash » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:41 am

MDDad wrote: Our young populace spends hundreds of millions of hours playing video games, over 90% of which depict violence and carnage committed with ever more grotesque weaponry. And let's not even mention the violence prevalent in much of rap music.
The young populace in other countries play those games and listen to rap music. Yet they don't seem to be committing mass murder.

It's also worth noting the agency most responsible for public health isn't allowed to study the issue.

broman
Posts: 3833
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Why the gun industry doesn't like Republicans

Post by broman » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:02 am

Professor Fate wrote:Some good points there Joe. Another problem is that neither the Sutherland Springs shooter, nor this Florida shooter, should have been able to buy those guns, if the Air Force, and the FBI respectively, had done their jobs.
Few comments on what the FBI could of done

Michael German, who left the FBI in 2004 and did undercover domestic terrorism work, said it was a mistake for the FBI to bill itself as being able to prevent all incidents of mass violence.

"They encourage the public to make reports, you know see something say something, and then you get a system where you're just responding to the flood as best you can," German said. "You're dealing with false alarms every day, and this becomes routine and you're just checking boxes."

Even if the FBI had followed proper procedures, including a 90-day assessment and interviewing the subject, that doesn't mean the threat will be stopped, German said, citing the case of Mateen, the Orlando shooter who was interviewed by the FBI prior to an attack that killed 49 people.

"Unless that person is going to confess to planning a crime, there's not a whole lot you can do," German said.

the second tip about Cruz’s potential violence came in to the FBI’s hotline in January, all of the information should have been passed along to agents in South Florida

If FBI agents later investigating the tips about Cruz had learned that he bought a semi-automatic rifle — or even that a gun shop had done an FBI background check — would that information have helped prioritize the case?

“As an investigator, I want all the information I can get,” said William Vizzard, a former special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and now a criminal justice professor at California State University, Sacramento. “It’s a small piece of information, but there’s no question it would be helpful.”

“If you think someone is a real and present danger, it would be quite useful,” Vizzard said. “You could look it up and say hey, the guy has an AR-15 in the house.”

Even with the tips, he still had the legal right to buy the weapon. --:-- Maybe, the could of got him on a 5150?
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 98934.html

Post Reply