Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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John Q. Public
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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The first step is to understand that you NEVER insult a potential "customer" or even the other guy's "customer." You don't even talk about them unless your prospect asks, and then you try to say something at least semi-positive about them. Democrats - and any Republican challengers to Trump - have to understand that they have to win back the people in swing states who voted for Trump and they aren't going to do that by insulting them - which includes insulting the guy they chose. But you can definitely ask them if their choice worked for them and if they want to insult the guy, great. You're half way to converting them.

Then you get to the real Step One, which is to look at the person's needs, wants and motivations and teach them about how your program will satisfy them and make their life 100% better. And then you ask if you can count on them to vote for you. Watch Bernie. He's really good at that. Hannity will attack him and Bernie says "so what" and goes on with his (positive) message.

And sort of back to the topic, something Donald or his people understood that Democrats still don't is that "the uneducated" are proud of that fact and you aren't going to convince a fourth-generation high school dropout steel worker or coal miner to go to school and learn to be a computer operator or customer service rep. You might teach him plumbing, construction, farming or driving a truck, you can sell him on better opportunities for his kids, but if his family, going back to his grand-pappy's grand-pappy's grand-pappy, has expected work to be physical and not require education, you aren't going to change him. There are a whole lot of people who actually look down on education and a whole lot of other people don't understand that.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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John Q. Public wrote: but if his family, going back to his grand-pappy's grand-pappy's grand-pappy, has expected work to be physical and not require education, you aren't going to change him.
I'm fine with that. Just don't expect me to empathize with that person's plight because of a conscience choice they made. Which is what many of them demand.

I posted this when I heard this on NPR. If not here then in response to a post on my FB feed.
What’s on my mind? The latest bit of media conventional wisdom, that’s what.

I just this morning heard ANOTHER in a long line of stories on the crisis among under educated white men and their lowering life expectancy and increasing drug addiction and how this is a serious problem that must be addressed. The author summed it up that they needed to be given back their dignity. That was the problem. Their forced indolence led them to despair and then to depression and drug addiction and then to an early death. These men (and women) were victims of globalization and automation and society needs to act.

Society has already provided a remedy for this reality. I recommend the advice that generations of black and brown people have been given – Lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. Black and brown people, robbed of their dignity, denied opportunity and condemned by systemic racism to lives of poverty and despair have been lectured by generations of smug white people that they just needed to work harder and stop wasting their money on frivolous purchases and instead model behaviors of middle class thrift and rectitude.

Life expectancy statistics have always been asterisked with the disclosure that longevity among blacks and Hispanics is lower than whites. This difference has never provoked any handwringing in the media. Never elicited a call to action that this was a crisis to be addressed immediately. It was simply reality, the way of the world.

If there was ever a poster child for white privilege, this phony crisis about the need to restore the dignity of white people is it.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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John Q. Public wrote: And sort of back to the topic, something Donald or his people understood that Democrats still don't is that "the uneducated" are proud of that fact and you aren't going to convince a fourth-generation high school dropout steel worker or coal miner to go to school and learn to be a computer operator or customer service rep. You might teach him plumbing, construction, farming or driving a truck, you can sell him on better opportunities for his kids, but if his family, going back to his grand-pappy's grand-pappy's grand-pappy, has expected work to be physical and not require education, you aren't going to change him.
Well, I don't think trying to "change him" would be a good strategy for any politician, but I also don't think that any politician will ever convince everyone of his position, especially if as you say people are 'proud' of their lack of education. And we're back to the question of when to stop educating and start ignoring.
John Q. Public wrote: There are a whole lot of people who actually look down on education and a whole lot of other people don't understand that.
Count me among those who don't understand.

I guess we disagree on the value of a political platform that appeals to the desires of the perpetually uneducated.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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John Q. Public wrote: Then you get to the real Step One, which is to look at the person's needs, wants and motivations and teach them about how your program will satisfy them and make their life 100% better.
When the salesman can say something like, "When the wind stops blowing, that’s the end of your electric," and it is applauded I have to believe there is no level of trying to use reason that will work.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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FTR, I couldn't care less about Trump's grades in high school or college.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Hey not4u13,

Did you vote for Hillary?
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Vilepagan wrote: Well not4U, not to put too fine a point on it but a lot of trump supporters are pretty stupid people. I really don't think we should worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator, nor do I think politicians should base their policies on what the dumbest among us want.
I think you are missing the point. If you don't know how to sell yourself as a candidate to enough of the electorate, it won't even matter how smart you are or how good you may be. You'll never get into office. We don't get to pick the best people for the job and I'm sure you already understand that.

It's also very much incorrect to simply dismiss all Trump supporters as pretty stupid people. I know some pretty smart folks who have blinders on right now. Trump all the way baby!

The message doesn't have to be dumb, but it does have to be simple. I pointed out that's exactly how Obama won. He didn't run on a complex agenda. He won on a simple concept. Change. Everything he said was built around that. When you think about it, that's really what Trump ran on ...
Drain the Swamp
Make America Great Again
Build a Wall

All these very simple concepts that nobody cared whether or not they were even possible.

People will get behind a simple but motivational message. That's what will get the next President elected.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Vilepagan wrote: And we're back to the question of when to stop educating and start ignoring.
Because that worked so well for Hillary? If you want to win the presidency or the Senate you have to win at least some of the places where that culture is dominant. If you ever expect to get Medicare-For-All or even opt-in Medicare passed you have to sell it to the people who don't understand it. You do that by educating them about how it would make their lives better and cost them less, not by calling them rubes or blowing them off. That just makes them more strongly opposed to anything you suggest.

There's actually a decent number of red states that could be turned blue with a little effort and understanding of how to appeal to them. Simply writing them off is foolish.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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not4u13 wrote: I think you are missing the point.
I don't believe I am.
If you don't know how to sell yourself as a candidate to enough of the electorate, it won't even matter how smart you are or how good you may be. You'll never get into office.
There you have the crux of the problem. People voted for trump knowing that what came out of his mouth was pure bs, and now you're here trying to convince me that wasn't incredibly dumb.

That's a tough argument to make. Good luck.

I would also like to say that I don't think you've got the gist of trump's simple message. You left out the part about how we should fear immigrants, Muslims, and Democrats...just to name a few...oh and trump's the best...and the smartest...and he'll only hire the best people...but now we're just getting into his unending supply of bs.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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John Q. Public wrote: Because that worked so well for Hillary?
Honestly John, I don't give a rat's behind about Hillary or the many theories about how she lost the election.
If you want to win the presidency or the Senate you have to win at least some of the places where that culture is dominant. If you ever expect to get Medicare-For-All or even opt-in Medicare passed you have to sell it to the people who don't understand it. You do that by educating them about how it would make their lives better and cost them less, not by calling them rubes or blowing them off.
Of course. Now the "educating" is done and yet you still have some people who claim that Medicare-for-all is just a way for the government to decide who lives and who dies...do you continue to "educate" or at some point do you ignore their flaky concerns and move ahead anyway?
There's actually a decent number of red states that could be turned blue with a little effort and understanding of how to appeal to them. Simply writing them off is foolish.
No one suggested they simply be written off, but my question remains...how much is a "little effort" and when do you give up and pass a law that says everyone must be vaccinated despite the fears of those who believe it causes autism?

Education only gets you so far...especially with those who look down on education. Are we supposed to build our society to cater to the intentionally uninformed?
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Vilepagan wrote: Education only gets you so far...especially with those who look down on education. Are we supposed to build our society to cater to the intentionally uninformed?
My thoughts exactly. At what point in time do we move on from those who are stuck in world or belief that never existed?
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Vilepagan wrote: Education only gets you so far...especially with those who look down on education. Are we supposed to build our society to cater to the intentionally uninformed?
Depends on if you want to win Ohio or not and if you want to lead or simply win. Or if you want to take the Senate back. A Democrat could win in 2020 without Ohio because they're running against Trump, but 2024 could be a completely different story. And it isn't just Ohio and it isn't just Democrats. I'm sure there are a lot of regions (states and half-states) that moderate Republicans would like to take back from the crazy people. And the only way to do that is by teaching the voters that there's a better way.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Vilepagan wrote: here you have the crux of the problem. People voted for trump knowing that what came out of his mouth was pure bs, and now you're here trying to convince me that wasn't incredibly dumb.

That's a tough argument to make. Good luck.

I would also like to say that I don't think you've got the gist of trump's simple message. You left out the part about how we should fear immigrants, Muslims, and Democrats...just to name a few...oh and trump's the best...and the smartest...and he'll only hire the best people...but now we're just getting into his unending supply of bs.
The argument is how to get someone, other than Trump, elected. Eyes on the prize. To do that, you have to figure out how he got elected and how it is he continues to appeal to so many people despite the obvious shortcomings.

No, it really doesn't matter that he lies (all politicians lie) or that he's crooked (all politicians are crooked). He peddles fear and uncertainty. He preys on the vulnerable. He gets them to believe he is the greatest of all time and shames anyone who challenges him. It's a propaganda machine. His campaign, his persona, his agenda. Propaganda works. You can't fight propaganda with complicated facts. That's the point. Keep trying to do that and we'll be seeing Trump win in a landslide. Bigly.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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not4u13 wrote: It's a propaganda machine. His campaign, his persona, his agenda. Propaganda works. You can't fight propaganda with complicated facts. That's the point. Keep trying to do that and we'll be seeing Trump win in a landslide. Bigly.
If, as you seem to be, you are suggesting that "we' use propaganda to defeat trump...shame on you. Bigly.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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What complicates this is that our electoral process allows for what I euphemistically call the tyranny of the minority.

The Senate majority represents a minority of citizens. As well as a president elected by fewer voters than the person who lost.

And the group that supports both of those entities (if I read the comments correctly) take great delight in remaining ignorant.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Your lack of understanding of how a federal republic works is duly noted.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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I understand how a federal republic works. I doubt the framers envisioned a scenario that we currently have where gleefully ignorant individuals would be the driving force of those making actual policy.

Wildly supporting a leader that embraced and encouraged the assistance of a hostile foreign power.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Well, you don't seem to. You blamed the electoral college for your candidate's failure to take it into account and now you blame equal representation of the states for representing all of the states equally. The Senate is working exactly as designed. The electoral college isn't exactly, but I don't think you'd be happy if it was.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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Wabash wrote:I understand how a federal republic works. I doubt the framers envisioned a scenario that we currently have where gleefully ignorant individuals would be the driving force of those making actual policy.
Actually they did. That's one reason why they created the Electoral College--to keep a populist fool or tyrant from becoming President. It has failed to do that.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

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I appreciate the responses from both of you. That makes more sense.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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