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Changing Democracy - Orange County Forums

Changing Democracy

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ShiftyMutt
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Changing Democracy

Postby ShiftyMutt » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:02 pm

At what point are we Californians underrepresented in the senate? We are 40 million strong and still only have 2 senators - versus, say, Alabama of 5 million. Where’s the population breaking point where the rules need to be revisited?

With everything else about this administration, it’s showing how we’re under a false sense of democracy.



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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Probably about the point where 67% of the states are blue enough that they'd ratify such a thing. In which case you wouldn't care any more. You might do better arguing about some of its functions - which are also mostly written in the Constitution - but it's doing just fine representing all states equally, as it was designed to do.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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Vilepagan
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Vilepagan » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:54 pm

There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby ShiftyMutt » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:11 pm

And we have 2 Dakota’s that, put together, equal less that 2 million people but are represented with 4 senators.
These things make a difference when it come to the senate passing crucial votes.

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:44 pm

The republic was designed that way for the purpose of making a difference. That’s how smaller population states were enticed to join the union in 1789 without the fear that larger states such as New York and Virginia would dominate them. They feared a “tyranny of the majority.” So the House of Reps is based on one person/one vote and the Senate is one state/one (technically two) vote.

The United States is a republic, not a direct democracy...........Luca

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ShiftyMutt
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby ShiftyMutt » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:59 pm

So you’d agree with the minority rule of rural states with a disproportionately bigger say in American government?

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm

I wouldn’t call it "minority rule." Rather, "minority representation." Look at a map of the US in the 2016 election and see how many states favored the President as opposed to Clinton. 3: 2 in favor of the President. If you can only get 40% of the states to support your election you haven’t done a very good job of appealing to the electorate at large. What you would have had would have been "rule" by a minority of states clustered on the east and west coasts. This is the kind of situation that the Republic was designed to prevent.

The system is designed so that you have to appeal not only to a sufficient number of voters, but a sufficient number of voters spread throughout the country.........................Luca
Last edited by Luca on Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:39 pm

What values do smaller states have that require a disproportionately larger representation for the presidential election?........Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:46 pm

The question is not whether or not one perceives them as having sufficient value, it's the fact that the Constitution entitles them to sufficient representation such that they are not in the aggregate dominated by a few larger states. The name chosen in 1789 was "The United States" and the states as entities are entitled to representation as are the individual citizens...................... Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:12 pm

You can't give a legit reason why the EC should exist now. It made sense then. Not any longer......Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:27 pm

Of course I can.

Why would the electoral college have made sense previously but not now?.................Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:35 pm

To accommodate the demands of the slave states. Which no longer exist.....Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Vilepagan
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Vilepagan » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:41 pm

There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:51 pm

You've been reading the internet again, Wabash. You should read actual history books or at least the Federalist Papers instead. The electoral college was not established because of slavery.

The question remains why the electoral college was "legit" previously but not now.

Pagan, can you produce any evidence that the electoral college is not as popular now as it once was? I've never seen polls comparing the 18th, 19th and 20th century opinions versus today.

You seem to imply that because people move around more than they used to (which I will grant you) that therefore the states are not as culturally or politically homogeneous as they once were. In that event, you would not see the dramatic divide between the relative handful of coastal states and the entire center of the country..................Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:10 pm

The legit historians I've read disagree with you. I'll take their word over yours.......Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
Posts: 6666
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:34 pm

Believe what you want, as always. You might try reading the "legit" Federalist Papers and the actual ("legit") words of those involved if you're really interested.

The electoral college was not instituted because of slavery so your point is "illegit". That's it.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:36 pm

Don't look at me, I just work here.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:36 pm

I've read them. I agree with the interpretation of the legit historians I've read more than I believe you.....Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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John Q. Public
Site Admin
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:42 pm

You got any names? Because they're wrong.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

Luca
Posts: 6666
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:44 pm

Great, that's a start. Now show me where in the Federalist Papers it states that the electoral college was proposed for the benefit of the institution of slavery, and the quotes from those Founding Father's verifying that....................................Luca

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