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Changing Democracy - Page 3 - Orange County Forums

Changing Democracy

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Fordama
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Fordama » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:01 pm

Slavery had something to do with hi, historical revisionism not withstanding. I'm sure you're educated enough to understand a reference to the "3/5 rule."

And yes, we can plainly see that there was a reason to over-ride an election. Hamilton said that it would keep someone with “talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity” from the Presidency. And The Electors would prevent “the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.” He was not alone in this kind of thinking.

Well, those two phrases really sum up what we've seen with the Trump election.


This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:06 pm

"Informed electors" ain't what they used to be, either. Given the "party over country" state of politics these days, using them might have strengthened Donald's victory.

And no, slavery had nothing to do with it. Most states allowed slavery at the time and its designers owned slaves. Why would they do that? It was more about the New England states not wanting to be subservient to Virginia than anything else.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:07 pm

They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:43 pm

Sure, I’m familiar with the 3/5 compromise. I just don’t see what it has to do with the electoral college topic we're discussing.

(As an aside, I just finished listening to a lecture on the French and Haitian Revolution. In a similar fashion, slave owners in Haiti wanted to preclude slaves from voting while at the same time include the slaves as part of the population, thereby increasing the slave owners’ own political power. Someone pointed out that slaves were either men or they were not. If they were men, they were entitled to vote. If they were not men then horses and cows owned by non slave owners should also be included in the population count. Good point. Somebody should have pointed that out in 1789)

Your opposition to the President is well-documented, Fordama, thanks to your voluminous commentary. However that merely represents your personal opinion, which is countered by those who are not of the same opinion, those "masses" you referenced. I’m sure your’re educated enough to understand that.

By your reference to "foreign powers to gain an improper ascendance" I assume you are referring to the debunked "commie collusion” conspiracy. That's been settled. For God's sake, Fordama give it up. It’s over. The topic is the electoral college………………………………Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:47 pm

They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:36 pm

Wabash, either provide the evidence that the reason the electoral college was instituted was because of slavery - by giving an objective source such as the Federalist papers or language from the actual people involved (and not by some revisionist Mickey Mouse junior assistant professor of history at St Elsewhere College of New Jersey that you read on the internet) - or give it up. You are the one making the claim and its up to you to prove it.

You seem to believe by simply making a statement that you have made a point. All you have made is a statement and you have provided no evidence for it. If slavery was a a primary justification for it there should be objective evidence. It would have been discussed openly.

Even if there may have been a reference to it at some point in the past regarding it, this does not indicate that the EC was instituted for that reason. The actual reasons have been well documented. For God's sake you ought to educate yourself and save us all some time...........................Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 pm

That you don't know that only proves my point about your knowledge on this topic. Madison wrote other things about government besides what is in the Federalist Papers. Perhaps you should take the advice the NRA gave to your fellow physicians. "Stay in your lane."........Wabash
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

Luca
Posts: 6666
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:14 pm

Sigh. As though there were some point in even responding to this myna bird. It is funny for a while but it wears off quickly.

Give it up, Wabash. You're an intellectual lost cause and the reason over half this board has departed..............Luca

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:38 pm

Lol. I don't respond to your demands. That is a lost cause. You're great at asking questions. You run when you're asked questions. Just know that legit historians believe slavery was an issue in creating the Electoral College. You're free to believe otherwise. That doesn't make it true.

Like many pseudo intellectuals you have to resort to personal attacks......Wabash
Last edited by Wabash on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Fordama
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Fordama » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:59 pm

This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

Luca
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Luca » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:55 pm

What do you mean by "played a part"? If by that you mean that the electoral college was created for the purpose of defending slavery, you are simply wrong. Just look at an unbiased source like History Central:

The Electoral College was created for two reasons. The first purpose was to create a buffer between the population and the selection of a President. The second as part of the structure of the government that gave extra power to the smaller states.

The first reason that the founders created the Electoral College is hard to understand today. The founding fathers were afraid of direct election to the Presidency. They feared a tyrant could manipulate public opinion and come to power. Hamilton [a non slave owning New Yorker] wrote in the Federalist Papers:

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations. It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief.
https://www.historycentral.com/election ... gewhy.html

Two reasons, neither to do with slavery:
To protect the smaller states from being overwhelmed by the larger more populous states such as Pennsylvania, New York and Virginia, itself a slave state

To enable a presumably more sophisticated and informed smaller group of electors to make the decision on the presidency, and not the electorate as a whole. The Founders did not trust the wisdom of the populace.

Whatever role slavery may have played in the debate it was a pretty minor one and I haven’t been able to find any record of it. The lack of records on this should tell you something. As I told your intellectual and like minded colleague, if you can find some actual discussion or record that indicates that slavery played a significant role in the construction of the EC, then produce it. I know from experience that you have a tendency to make unsupported claims and then refuse to document any evidence for them, claiming it is up to your opponent to disprove your beliefs.

Well, no. Your claim, you either prove it or admit that you cannot..............................

I don’t think I know two people who have not heard all the smoking gun claims and hysteria etc. over the last 2 years. The investigation was to show that the President conspired with the Russian government to influence the election. The report is out. The assertion was not supported. End of story.

……………………… Unless…. It was Mrs. Peacock with the wrench in the Conservatory…………………….Luca
Last edited by Luca on Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:13 pm

Yet the author of your citation doesn't mention this line from Madison.

"The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes."

In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.

Virginia emerged as the big winner the California of the Founding era with 12 out of a total of 91 electoral votes allocated by the Philadelphia Constitution, more than a quarter of the 46 needed to win an election in the first round. After the 1800 census, Pennsylvania had 10% more free persons than Virginia, but got 20% fewer electoral votes. Perversely, the more slaves Virginia (or any other slave state) bought or bred, the more electoral votes it would receive. Were a slave state to free any blacks who then moved North, the state could actually lose electoral votes.......Wabash
Last edited by Wabash on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:11 pm

A final point.

If the system’s pro-slavery tilt was not overwhelmingly obvious when the Constitution was ratified, it quickly became so. For 32 of the Constitution’s first 36 years, a white slave holding Virginian occupied the presidency.

Southerner Thomas Jefferson, for example, won the election of 1800-01 against Northerner John Adams in a race where the slavery-skew of the electoral college was the decisive margin of victory. Without the extra electoral college votes generated by slavery, the mostly southern states that supported Jefferson would not have sufficed to give him a majority. Thomas Jefferson metaphorically rode into the executive mansion on the backs of slaves.........Wabash
Last edited by Wabash on Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:38 pm

Wrong again. The single issue in the 1800 election was John Adams and his New England style federalism. Slavery wouldn't be an issue for another 50 years. Climate change had nothing to do with Eisenhower's election, slavery had nothing to do with Jefferson's.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:13 am

Totally agree on when slavery became an issue. You're conflating two separate issues. The point I made is that counting slaves for representation allowed individuals to get elected. Who might not have been otherwise. Which was the reason individuals like Madison et al pushed for creating the Electoral College. Slavery was a factor. Despite the revisionist claims being pushed by Luca.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Fordama
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Fordama » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:51 am

This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:51 am

Non-voting women, children and non-landed people were also counted, and now illegals are, but you could hardly say that the system is about any of them.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:55 am

And counting 3/5 of slaves still didn't give the South parity. The "North" still outnumbered the "South" by about 3 to 2 in the EC.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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Wabash
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby Wabash » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:24 am

I believe they knew that adding a group that lacked suffrage would have a higher probability of getting them the outcome they desired. Which is what happened.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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John Q. Public
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Re: Changing Democracy

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:46 am

I'm not sure what that would have been at the time, but... ohhh-kay.
Don't look at me, I just work here.

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