He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

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He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Hanna » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:59 am

(snip)

I’ve just watched populism destroy traditional conservatism in the G.O.P. I’m here to tell you that Bernie Sanders is not a liberal Democrat. He’s what replaces liberal Democrats. Traditional liberalism traces its intellectual roots to John Stuart Mill, John Locke, the Social Gospel movement and the New Deal. This liberalism believes in gaining power the traditional way: building coalitions, working within the constitutional system and crafting the sort of compromises you need in a complex, pluralistic society. This is why liberals like Hubert Humphrey, Ted Kennedy and Elizabeth Warren were and are such effective senators. They worked within the system, negotiated and practiced the art of politics.

Populists like Sanders speak as if the whole system is irredeemably corrupt. Sanders was a useless House member and has been a marginal senator because he doesn’t operate within this system or believe in this theory of change. He believes in revolutionary mass mobilization and, once an election has been won, rule by majoritarian domination. This is how populists of left and right are ruling all over the world, and it is exactly what our founders feared most and tried hard to prevent.

Liberalism celebrates certain values: reasonableness, conversation, compassion, tolerance, intellectual humility and optimism. Liberalism is horrified by cruelty. Sanders’s leadership style embodies the populist values, which are different: rage, bitter and relentless polarization, a demand for ideological purity among your friends and incessant hatred for your supposed foes. A liberal leader confronts new facts and changes his or her mind. A populist leader cannot because the omniscience of the charismatic headman can never be doubted. A liberal sees shades of gray. For a populist reality is white or black, friend or enemy. Facts that don’t fit the dogma are ignored.

A liberal sees inequality and tries to reduce it. A populist sees remorseless class war and believes in concentrated power to crush the enemy. Sanders is running on a $60 trillion spending agenda that would double the size of the federal government. It would represent the greatest concentration of power in the Washington elite in American history.

(snip)

There is a specter haunting the world — corrosive populisms of right and left. These populisms grow out of real problems but are the wrong answers to them. For the past century, liberal Democrats from F.D.R. to Barack Obama knew how to beat back threats from the populist left. They knew how to defend the legitimacy of our system, even while reforming it. Judging by the last few debates, none of the current candidates remember those arguments or know how to rebut a populist to their left.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/opin ... nders.html

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:09 pm

I get the impression that Brooks has been locking himself in a cabin and snorting meth for three days before he writes his columns anymore. Bernie's an idealist but he's not Stalin. Or Trump. Crazy stuff, once again.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Omar Bongo » Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:15 pm

Sanders is running on a $60 trillion spending agenda that would double the size of the federal government. It would represent the greatest concentration of power in the Washington elite in American history.
As opposed to what's happening now? Brooks likes to call himself a moderate, but here he frets about Sanders' spending plan when trump gave trillions in historic tax relief to himself and his top % buddies while ballooning the deficit and national debt to historic levels...he worries about "concentration of power" while ignoring the Imperial trump presidency with its gag orders, stonewalling, injunctions, endless appeals, permanent recess appointments, presidential edicts, executive orders, public floggings, judicial intimidation...with his complete control of the Senate and the Majority Leader and carte blanche judicial appointments we basically have one branch of government (Executive) and two hapless bystanders. How could Sanders be anything but an improvement?
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Vilepagan » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:50 am

Hanna wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:59 am
Sanders’s leadership style embodies the populist values, which are different: rage, bitter and relentless polarization, a demand for ideological purity among your friends and incessant hatred for your supposed foes.
What the heck is he going on about? I go with your suggestion JQP, although I would say he got a hold of some bad meth.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Hanna » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:27 am

He is worse! Like Trump he admires strongmen. He does not care about anyone. His so-called "care" are just vehicles to advance his ambitions. He is not even a Democrat! Has never been a Democrat, has actively campaigned against Democratic candidates including hoping for a primary challenge to Obama in 2012. If he is the nominee we, Democrats, can say good bye to the White House, to the House, forget about flipping the Senate and let McConnell continue happily with transforming the judicial system. He would not approve the Obama's nominees - not just Merrick Garland, but others - thus ensuring empty offices that he has been filling at a fast pace.

Oh, they will get their "revolution" while eviscerating the Democratic party as we know it. He, and AOC and Omar and Tlaib and other miserable Democratic office holders.

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:12 am

I don't think he's the best choice this time, but Bernie as strongman? Hardly. I think he'd actually be fairly weak as president.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Wabash » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am

Mrs. Wabash and I went out to dinner with a couple we have known for years. The wife asks if we are going to vote for Sanders if he is the nominee. We both nod in the affirmative.

The response is an immediate soundbite I hear all the time from so called fiscal conservatives.

"How are we going to pay for all the things he wants?"

I replied that we would pay for them the same way we pay for all the unnecessary wars the GOP starting. Or the tax cuts that have ballooned the deficit. Or the incredibly bloated weapons systems we buy.

The subject was changed to the weird weather we had Saturday.

It's pretty obvious the GOP establishment wants Sanders. I believe it will be a non stop narrative of him being the nephew of Uncle Joe.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Hanna » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:26 pm

A recent poll found that a high percentage of voters in CA and in TX have a "positive view" of socialism and I have to wonder whether they even know what socialism means. Just as many support Medicare for all until they hear the details and then they no longer do.

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:12 pm

Anyone got an actual quote on this?

Somebody said that at his rally in LA last night that Bernie said he'd legalize marijuana in all 50 states and expunge all of the convictions for possession by executive order. I wouldn't put it past Donald to make a claim like that but surely Bernie's bright enough to know that neither of those is within the president's power. I'm calling "fake news" until I hear otherwise.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Hanna » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:53 pm

Monday, March 02, 2020
by Common Dreams
'Absolutely Remarkable': Poll Shows Democratic Voters in Texas and California View Socialism More Positively Than Capitalism

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/ ... ornia-view

Likely Democratic presidential primary voters in Texas and California—the two states with the most pledged delegates to award on Super Tuesday—view socialism more positively than capitalism, according to a CBS News/YouGov tracking poll released Sunday.

The survey showed 56% of Democratic primary voters in Texas and 57% in California have a favorable view of socialism. Just 37% of Democratic voters in Texas and 45% in California have a positive view of capitalism, the poll found, signaling widespread discontent with the vastly unequal economic status quo.

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:58 pm

"Signaling widespread discontent with the vastly unequal economic status quo" should have been bolded, shouted from the rooftops and shouted in the faces of the MAGA crowd, who haven't yet figured out that Donald did just the opposite of what he promised on it.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Vilepagan » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:51 am

Hanna wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:26 pm
A recent poll found that a high percentage of voters in CA and in TX have a "positive view" of socialism and I have to wonder whether they even know what socialism means.
I know what it means and I have a positive view of socialism. Why do you dislike it so much?
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by crayegg » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:19 am

Zactly JQ! Could not have said it better.

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:32 am

Can you have a positive view of both?

Given our wealth/income/prosperity/pay/opportunity distribution I'm not surprised at all that an alternative is growing in popularity. I'm more surprised that it's taken so long. Things have been out of whack for 20 or 30 years.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Hanna » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:17 am

Ever lived under socialist regime? Public servants are now volunteers. Why bother to excel if everyone will get the save salary, the same, benefits? Why bother to please citizens who need assistance? Let them wait in line for long time. Why bother to be innovative? Sanders had a least heart attack that we know of. Who, do you think developed the stents and other medications? Yes, the "corrupt" pharmaceutical companies. Who, do you think, is now working around the clock to develop anti coronavirus vaccines, who have already sent some to China? The "corrupt" pharmaceuticals, of course. Sanders barely worked in the private sector, made his millions while living off tax payers money. Have you noticed that he no longer rail against "millionaire," only "billionaires?"

And, of course, Bernie Sanders wrote an essay in which a woman fantasizes about being "raped by three men simultaneously."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bernie-sanders-essay/

He and Warren chastised corporations. Don't know about you, but both my father and father in law worked for corporations were union members that allowed them to retire in dignity and for their widows, and to send their kids to college. First in the family. Neither I nor my spouse have pensions, but we did work for corporations that allowed us to contribute to 401K and to now retire comfortably.

Young (and old) people wishing for socialism are so naive. I remember in the 70s on campus, we had someone who was from South Africa. And he once said: people here talk about "police brutality," they have no idea what police brutality really means.

Still, most voters will not vote for a "socialist " candidate so if he is the nominee, say hello to four more years of Trump and forget about controlling the House and the Senate.

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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:10 am

Saab, Volvo, IKEA, Lego, BASF, Volkswagen, Daimler, Fiat/Chrysler, Renault, Airbus, Sandoz, Hoffman-LaRoche, Novartis, Bayer, Sanofi, Royal Dutch Shell, BNP Paribas, ING, Siemens, Bosch, Maersk, Unilever, Michelin, L'Oreal, Anheuser-Busch InBev, Nokia, Ericsson... the list goes on.

You're confusing socialism with communism and human nature with the 1%'s propaganda.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:31 am

What I think is most notable, for lack of a better word, is Bernie's support from Hispanics. They're by far the country's most entrepreneurial ethnicity - by far enough that it isn't un-PC to single them out. Their rates of business ownership are two or three times the rates for all other groups. Why have they swung so heavily to Bernie? Seems like that would be worth looking at.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by Vilepagan » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:52 am

Hanna wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:17 am
Who, do you think developed the stents and other medications? Yes, the "corrupt" pharmaceutical companies. Who, do you think, is now working around the clock to develop anti coronavirus vaccines, who have already sent some to China? The "corrupt" pharmaceuticals, of course.
I see. Are the corrupt pharmaceutical companies developing this vaccine so they can make money? Or because there's a desperate need?

He and Warren chastised corporations. Don't know about you, but both my father and father in law worked for corporations were union members that allowed them to retire in dignity and for their widows, and to send their kids to college. First in the family. Neither I nor my spouse have pensions, but we did work for corporations that allowed us to contribute to 401K and to now retire comfortably.
Nice for you and your family...not everyone is so fortunate.
Young (and old) people wishing for socialism are so naive.
I grew up in Milwaukee. Milwaukee has a long history of socialism in their government. According to an article in The Guardian "Contrary to popular belief, Americans don't have an innate allergy to socialism". It noted that Milwaukee has had several socialist mayors such as Emil Seidel, Daniel Hoan and Frank Zeidler. But I suppose all those old Milwaukeeans were just naive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ted_States
I remember in the 70s on campus, we had someone who was from South Africa. And he once said: people here talk about "police brutality," they have no idea what police brutality really means.
So what you're saying is that it's impossible for our cops to be brutal because they're more brutal in South Africa?
Still, most voters will not vote for a "socialist " candidate...
Maybe if they were better educated they wouldn't be so afraid of socialism. Do you see people complaining about the way the NFL is run? Socialist...and you'll note that not everyone is paid the same.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:36 pm

Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware and southern New Jersey were all somewhat socialistic from their foundings.
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Re: He is not a liberal, he's the end of liberalism - interesting perspective from... David Brooks

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:52 pm

Cost of COVID-19 testing in the US - $3,000.
Cost in Italy, China, the UK and South Korea - $0
Tests done in the US - 500
Tests done per day in South Korea - 10,000

Socalitism or not, this thing is going to help Bernie (and Warren).
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