Racism and the Economy

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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:58 pm "According to the 1938 Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences, that year only 11 percent of black children were born to unwed mothers. As late as 1950, female-headed households constituted only 18 percent of the black population. Today it’s close to 70 percent."

To say that this is because of systemic racism in, for example, real estate, is like saying let's fix the roof when the entire ground floor is in flames. The tattered state of the black family unit is THE fundamental problem. No one seems to know about it?
Way too complicated of an issue to explain in a forum post, but those dates match up very well with the Great Migration. In the early 20th century, practically all African-Americans still lived in the South - in intact families. They started moving northward during WW1 but it didn't really pick up until after WWII, so in 1938 most of today's Northern "Chocolate" cities were less than 5% Black. Being so poor that most of them had to save for a year to buy a train ticket, most left their families behind and roomed with a relative or somebody from their town in tenement apartments - that had been subdivided into even smaller apartments after the Italians and Poles moved out - until they could find a job as a maid or a pig slaughterer or whatever menial job that a country Negro with an eighth-grade education could come up with and they could rent their own room. Some eventually brought their families, some didn't. So, yes, there was probably a lot of hanky-panky going on.

Add a few million more people in the same confined ghetto and add to that public assistance programs that required that the father not be part of the household (even if he actually was) and you have a recipe for a high percentage of female-headed households, regardless of race. Add housing, job and credit discrimination and you get a vicious circle that still hasn't really been completely broken. Johnson (yes, he probably did say that) tried with his War On Poverty but in the inner city, most of the successes were that it allowed the people lucky enough to be working in the programs to move to a nicer part of the ghetto, or after the NAACP and the ACLU sued to allow it, some were able to move to the near-in suburbs like Cicero, Compton and Newark. But it didn't do squat for the inner city and in many cases, it just let it expand its borders.

But with almost anything you can blame for the African-American condition in this country ask, "Why is that?" - sometimes you might have to ask it two or three times. Nine times out of ten, you'll land on racism in one form or another. Sometimes it will be overt, sometimes it will simply be historical ignorance, but it'll be there. Which is why I think it's a great idea to teach ethnic studies (of all ethnicities, even white) in high schools. There's just too many things we don't know about each other.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote:I have more disdain for the Bush clan than the Clinton/Obama clans
Not sure why you guys like to lump Obama and the Clintons together, they couldn't have less in common. That's like me disparaging the Nixon/Eisenhower "Clan"

ventura post wrote:I voted for Trump as a middle finger to both parties
Your idea of giving a middle finger to the Republican Party is to vote for their candidate? ](*,)
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Oh, and also, speaking of, like, the topic, I don't know anything about the family unit in 18th and 19th century sub-Saharan Africa but I seriously doubt that slave traders and owners had any compunctions about splitting up families, so there's kind of a history there.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Wabash wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:26 pm And do not get me started on the disparate treatment by law enforcement. I had white classmates in high school and college that did drugs. For some reason the cops would let them go when they discovered the occasional bag of weed. No record, no problem.
Then you must have been happy about the First Step Act Trump signed. This helped the African American far more than any other. Did Obama do anything like that in his eight years? Trump signed it in less than two. If drug crime incarceration is actually a big deal to you, check Biden's 1994 crime bill, and Harris's record in CA, called out so devistatingly by Tulsi Gabbard in the presidential debates.
Wabash wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:26 pm Art. 1, Sec. 8 states (among many things);

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States......
There wasn't even an income tax until after 1900. Context, Wabash. Believe me, the Framers did not have our kind of taxation anywhere on their radar, much less federal spending of money they don't have. They would have collectively howled in derisive laughter at the possibility of a trillion dollar debt. The collective idea behind the American idea was that government is, and always will be, tyrannical in nature, and it must be kept small. Quoting snippets of the Constitution to back the idea of our current government....not a good concept.

In my view (and in the views Malcom X, Sowell, Williams, and many other black intellectuals) the way to cure racism through the economy is to free up the populace and to compete fairly. Monopolies were debated fiercely when forming our nation, and I believe Jefferson didn't get his way when fighting against them. Monopolies infringe on other's rights to bring their products to the market. A good example of cheating this way is Gates and Microsoft buying up competitors and then holding onto their innovative technology until he could develop the same and profit off someone else's work. Not much of a scholar on this, and I've forgotten what I once knew, so someone might skewer me here.

Point is, a long term economic strategy can't be forced by telling people who they can and cannot associate with. If we allowed for Malcom X's plan for the black man to be self reliant through a type of black nationalism, I think we'd be in a better place than we are now. My desire to befriend a black man, because as a Christian I love him, is the cure, not government stepping in and saying if you don't vote democrat, you ain't black. As Malcom said, " If a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that’s brotherhood". Forcing that by law will make the recipient of this action rightly suspicious. The boots on the ground have to fight against racism, i.e. love of every human soul - NOT government mandate. Malcom said why would I want to be in a white establishment where the a-hole owner doesn't want me for something as stupid as my skin color. I'll build my own establishment. Leave the moron to stew with any of his own that would such an abhorrent view.

I'm definitely a Trump guy now, in spite of his tweets and in many ways annoying personality. It ain't a personality contest, and I believe he really had things going in a good direction economically for those struggling before COVID hit. For the democrats to use a pandemic as political capital makes me want them out power.
Last edited by ventura on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Omar Bongo wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:17 pm Your idea of giving a middle finger to the Republican Party is to vote for their candidate?
Omar you are frustrating with your vacuous one liners. Neocons and many other Republicans hated Trump more than the dems did, there are still republican never-Trumpers. The dems actually had Trump as their candidate of choice, thinking there is no way the blowhard wouldn't get annihilated. I voted for a republican for the first time in 40 or so years because he wasn't a Bush, Dole, McCain, and he was critical of our involvement in the middle east.

Crap. It's 9:30. Gotta work and get some money for our government to throw into the incinerator.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:17 am Then you must have been happy about the First Step Act Trump signed. This helped the African American inmate population far more than any other. Did Obama do anything like that in his eight years? Trump signed it in less than two.
I am happy with that. Just not enough to vote for him.
ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:17 am There wasn't even an income tax until after 1900.
Which does not change the Constitution or the authority it has to tax.

I will not get into the hypotheticals of what the Founding Fathers would or would not have done.
ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:17 am In my view (and in the views Malcom X, Sowell, Williams, and many other black intellectuals) the way to cure racism through the economy is to free up the populace and to compete fairly.
Not sure what you mean. What GOP policies of the last 50 years promotes that? Why is that not the case in any of the states governed by the GOP?
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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says Wabash:
"I will not get into the hypotheticals of what the Founding Fathers would or would not have done"

Don't blame you it would hardly hypothetical and it wouldn't go well for you. Besides, we're off topic for the thread.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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I could just as easily say they would support the current status quo.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Wabash wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:45 am Not sure what you mean. What GOP policies of the last 50 years promotes that? Why is that not the case in any of the states governed by the GOP?
Dude, I am NOT a GOP guy, or haven't you been reading my posts? I think the way the mainstream press and the dems have treated Trump in the past four years has been unfair, and that's not the way to regain political power. So I will vote for him to get four more. Another factor for me is that I believe Kamala Harris is pretty much a socialist, and she'll basically be the pres.

I wouldn't be too worried about our differences, Wabash. It looks like Trump will be out and per usual, I'll have to worker harder for less. The government will grow more ominously in the next four years than it has in the past four - I'm used to chocking down that pill.

Plus I'll have to listen to what a racist a-hole I am more than usual.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 am The government will grow more ominously in the next four years than it has in the past four - I'm used to chocking down that pill.
The federal government (as a share of GDP) shrinks during Dem administrations.

Secondly, Trump did not lower taxes. He lowered tax RATES!!

All that unnecessary borrowing (most of it due to his incompetence) will have to be repaid out of the US Treasury.....with interest. Which is future taxation deferred.

While you claim you are not a "GOP guy" you admit you vote for them. That makes you a "GOP guy."
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Wabash wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:57 am I could just as easily say they would support the current status quo.
yes you could

you'd be very, very wrong though

maybe start another thread titled "no taxation without representation - what did the founders think of it", or something like that

or "did the founders anticipate an income tax?"

see how it goes for you
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:21 am you'd be very, very wrong though
Not unless you have them recorded in a seance.

We know at least one of them had no problem enacting taxation and using military force to collect it.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Racism and the Economy?
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Considering my example is one of the slave owning founding fathers, I would say my comment is very relevant to the topic.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Racism and the Economy

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I would say it isn't.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:26 amIt's the break up of the black family. When a father abandons his wife and children, check out the left-behind boy's statistics on drug addiction, suicide, gang affiliation and all the attendant mayhem connected with it, general economic success, etc. etc. Generation to generation, it perpetuates itself like a deadly disease.
For that to be the cause, the numbers would have to show that white and Hispanic families who have been abandoned by their fathers have reached more economic success than blacks. I'd be shocked if that were true. Well, actually I'm sure it's true for white people, but not for the reason you suggest. Looking at nothing other than poverty and divorce rates, that isn't the case with Hispanics. You'd also have to believe that there's something about being black that is causing the issue... and I'm talking about something other than systemic racism.

An anecdotal example -- An acquaintance of mine's father was a drug addict and in and out of prison for many years. He followed in the same path of his father and although he avoided prison he was an alcoholic who didn't graduate from high school and hasn't held more than a minimum wage job his entire life. He quit drinking and is doing better, but will always live paycheck to paycheck and never reach a high level of financial freedom. However, like my real estate example earlier, his aunt passed away and left him a $500k home in California free and clear. That gave him a place to live, rent-free, and the ability to survive on $8/hour while he somewhat got his life in order. If you didn't guess by now, he's not black. In fact, he was even the only white guy in an all-black gang. I wonder how the other members of the Southside Mafia are doing today...
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:17 am Then you must have been happy about the First Step Act Trump signed. This helped the African American far more than any other. Did Obama do anything like that in his eight years? Trump signed it in less than two. If drug crime incarceration is actually a big deal to you, check Biden's 1994 crime bill, and Harris's record in CA, called out so devistatingly by Tulsi Gabbard in the presidential debates.
These bills and laws that dealing with criminal justice are have been bipartisan affairs. At the time the 1994 crime bill has support of many Black leaders especially because of the crack pandemic in some communities. Folks are not that damn simple minded, Biden has a record, Harris has a record and so does Trump. Ask a few more Black folks how insulting the "I did more for Black People" is.
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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broman writes "These bills and laws that dealing with criminal justice are have been bipartisan affairs."

I agree. Why didn't Obama do something like this. Or maybe he did? I actually don't know.

broman writes "Biden has a record, Harris has a record"

check this out - hilarious - Biden's a racist. Harris is a racist. It's a racist race.

If it weren't for the pro life issue, Gabbard might be a serious contender for me. Yet she gets what, less than 1% of the of the dem vote? Why, because she's a Russian agent? She doesn't want to blow up the entire middle east? LOL

broman writes "Ask a few more Black folks how insulting the "I did more for Black People" is."

???? why is that insulting? He either did help the black economically or he didn't. He either did help get them out from under Harris's ridiculous jail sentences, or he didn't. So Biden's "you ain't black" comment is fine, but there's something wrong with what Trump's quoted as saying, above?
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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ventura wrote:Omar you are frustrating with your vacuous one liners.
Interesting description of an honest question.

Seriously, wouldn't the logical way to give "a middle finger to both parties" be to vote for the 3rd party candidate??

I guess all we can do is hope that you voting for the Republicans' nominee taught them a lesson they'll never forget... :roll:


Neocons and many other Republicans hated Trump more than the dems did, there are still republican never-Trumpers.

FYI: he got 90% of the Republican vote in 2016


I voted for a republican for the first time in 40 or so years because he wasn't a Bush, Dole, McCain, and he was critical of our involvement in the middle east

Ahh, a Reagan Democrat...
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Re: Racism and the Economy

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Omar Bongo wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:17 pm Not sure why you guys like to lump Obama and the Clintons together, they couldn't have less in common. That's like me disparaging the Nixon/Eisenhower "Clan
Appreciate the analogy, but the jury is out for me still on Obama. I'm not sure about what he might have been complicit in with the transition difficulties - so much to read about it makes my head spin.

The whole "if you want to keep your insurance, you keep your insurance" was a lie I have very personal knowledge of. We employ about 20 people. Their health care SUCKs compared to pre Obama, and costs us LITERALLY double. Thank God our business is doing well, otherwise we'd have to cut out health care for our employees, as poor as the coverage now is. Would we be forced to just let them go if our business was struggling? YES. Did he know he was so off on his statement when he made it? I don't know.

Obama was not one to unite. He got a free pass from the press (would love to see him field questions like a Trump press conference). I think he delivered some speeches like a pro. But we have a black president for eight years and in its wake we are somehow far more racist than we ever have been?

So something is going on with the race and politics thing. "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."
Last edited by ventura on Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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