US occupation today versus post WWII

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Charles
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US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Charles » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:34 pm

Why was the US military occupation of Japan and Germany peaceful compared to Iraq and Afghanistan?

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Notice the US jeep on the right side:

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Parrotpaul
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Parrotpaul » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:40 pm

The Japanese people loved everything about America. They loved the baseball teams..they loved country and western music and western clothing...they liked the Hollywood glamor, and they liked ditching the war lords for a democratic society with no standing military. Those others hate America and everything about our culture, our society, and our way of governing ...it still is not the time to try to integrate the two...it's like mixing oil and water.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

Charles
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Charles » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:43 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:The Japanese people loved everything about America. They loved the baseball teams..they loved country and western music and western clothing...they liked the Hollywood glamor, and they liked ditching the war lords for a democratic society with no standing military. Those others hate America and everything about our culture, our society, and our way of governing ...it still is not the time to try to integrate the two...it's like mixing oil and water.
Did the Japanese embrace Americana over night? They were at war with the US for four years and the US had just dropped two atomic bombs on their cities. How could they all-of-a-sudden love America?

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Parrotpaul
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Parrotpaul » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:32 pm

"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

Luca
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Luca » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:37 pm

The reason the occupation of Japan went well is because:

1). We had crushed their military totally and they had no choice but to acknowledge defeat. There was no question of the United States being invincible in their eyes. There was no affection for America, simply an acknowledgment that they were the victors and therefore in charge.

2). Japan, unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, still had a functioning government which the United States left in place. MacArthur wisely did not humiliate the Emperor and allowed him to stay on as a figurehead although he was required to renounce any claim to divinity. With the implicit support of the Emperor, there was no real organized resistance to the establishment of a democracy.

As for Germany, they had had experience with democracy and instituting a Democratic government was not novel. I believe as a nation they eventually grasped that the Nazis were an enormous, evil mistake and at least they had it a whole lot better than their countrymen in the eastern sector under the control of the Russians. There was not much cultural difference between the American/British/French and the German people. Luca

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Troglodyte
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Troglodyte » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:06 pm

Charles wrote:
Did the Japanese embrace Americana over night? They were at war with the US for four years and the US had just dropped two atomic bombs on their cities. How could they all-of-a-sudden love America?
The Japanese are very practical people. Simply put, they felt that because we beat them, our way of governing, manufacturing, etc was better than their's and Quickly adopted it. Germany was a different case. The people were tired of war, even though the Nazis were out of control the average Germans were still civilized, and the US, England, and France treated them like it was just a government change, and we kicked in to repair the damage.
Iraq, Afghanistan, and the rest of the MidEast have been carrying on hatreds and feuds for thousands of years. They've conquored, fallen, and reconquored each other numerous times. Each time the victor committed wholesale slaughter and attrocities on the conquored. They expect no less this time..
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oceanvue
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by oceanvue » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:57 am

unfair comparisons. Us occupying Iraq and Afghanistan is closer to Germany occupying France or Poland which was met with resistance
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Vilepagan
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Vilepagan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Troglodyte wrote:Iraq, Afghanistan, and the rest of the MidEast have been carrying on hatreds and feuds for thousands of years. They've conquored, fallen, and reconquored each other numerous times. Each time the victor committed wholesale slaughter and attrocities on the conquored. They expect no less this time..
Wow, they must be a backwards, warlike people. :roll:

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Vilepagan
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Vilepagan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:30 pm

Luca wrote:The reason the occupation of Japan went well is because:

1). We had crushed their military totally and they had no choice but to acknowledge defeat. There was no question of the United States being invincible in their eyes. There was no affection for America, simply an acknowledgment that they were the victors and therefore in charge.

2). Japan, unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, still had a functioning government which the United States left in place. MacArthur wisely did not humiliate the Emperor and allowed him to stay on as a figurehead although he was required to renounce any claim to divinity. With the implicit support of the Emperor, there was no real organized resistance to the establishment of a democracy.

As for Germany, they had had experience with democracy and instituting a Democratic government was not novel. I believe as a nation they eventually grasped that the Nazis were an enormous, evil mistake and at least they had it a whole lot better than their countrymen in the eastern sector under the control of the Russians. There was not much cultural difference between the American/British/French and the German people. Luca
I agree with what you say here, and I would add that the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan are different. Iraq has only been Iraq since 1920, and was created as such after WWI by the European powers. Afghanistan has no history of a strong central government at all, being traditionally run by tribal warlords, but they do have a strong tradition of resistance to outside invaders. I think the problems in Iraq are somewhat similar to the problems we saw when Yugoslavia fell apart. An arbitrary nation was created by an outside power out of a group of people who had a number of conflicts with one another and they were expected to suddenly play nice.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Luca » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:17 pm

It makes you think in some ways that these problems are unavoidable and unsolvable. When a group of people in a vicinity like the Balkans - or the Middle East - simply do not get along and have not for centuries, the problems spill out into the surrounding areas and destabilize them.

The people in those outside areas do have some right to protect themselves from the instability and so they try to impose order on an area. It's almost doomed to failure but you have to try something to keep their problems from involving you.

You can look back and blame them for being so stupid as to try, but you wonder if they had a choice. There are no obvious solutions. There was an Israeli prime minister a few decades ago who observed that if a problem seems insoluble then maybe it's not really a problem, maybe it's simply a fact of life. Luca

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Troglodyte
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Troglodyte » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:22 pm

Vilepagan wrote:
Wow, they must be a backwards, warlike people. :roll:

Would it be too much to ask for cite?
Guess you didn't take world history, read the Bible, read a newspaper, or talk to any returning GIs... Maybe when they finish killing and blowing eachother up, you'll figure it out.
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oceanvue
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by oceanvue » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:08 pm

I don't think Americans would be so cool on war if people were always coming here instead of us going there
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Luca
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by Luca » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:51 pm

"... cool on war..."? Luca

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tLIB
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by tLIB » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:08 pm

Charles wrote: Did the Japanese embrace Americana over night? They were at war with the US for four years and the US had just dropped two atomic bombs on their cities.
I don't think any country wants to be occupied. I am sure there would be many people that would welcome the Chinese occupying our country. But there would be others, true patriots IMO, who would fight the occupiers. The Chinese goal would need to be to kill our finest patriots.

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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by perspixx » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:23 pm

Charles wrote:
Did the Japanese embrace Americana over night? They were at war with the US for four years and the US had just dropped two atomic bombs on their cities. How could they all-of-a-sudden love America?
Well, for one, we put the fear in their minds that if they kept fighting us, we could drop some more atomic bombs. It was America or extinction. In modern times, we can't make such a threat because it would hurt somebody's feelings.
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tLIB
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Re: US occupation today versus post WWII

Post by tLIB » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:51 pm

perspixx wrote: Well, for one, we put the fear in their minds that if they kept fighting us, we could drop some more atomic bombs. It was America or extinction. In modern times, we can't make such a threat because it would hurt somebody's feelings.
Or could start a global nuclear war.

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