Homo's pick a fight

joefutbol
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby joefutbol » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:49 am

GOODave wrote:You are sooooooooo committed to "it has to go like I say it goes" you cannot but have the last word.

Like now:


That has got to be a joke. In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and GOODave typing the last word.



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AsIfYouKnew
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:30 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:
OK.... is your belief homosexuaity is a result of nuture and environment and/or a result of choice and not genetics?

I believe your answer will be evidence enough.


My opinion can be arrived at through deductive logic. Your assertion that there is a genetic component should be substantiated with facts. You do not have any, but will not admit it. You just need to believe that to prop up your politically correct belief.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Parrotpaul
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Parrotpaul » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:55 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:
OK.... is your belief homosexuaity is a result of nuture and environment and/or a result of choice and not genetics?

I believe your answer will be evidence enough.


AsIfYouKnew wrote: My opinion can be arrived at through deductive logic. Your assertion that there is a genetic component should be substantiated with facts. You do not have any, but will not admit it. You just need to believe that to prop up your politically correct belief.
Can you speak for ND7...the question was addressed specifically to him. What is your own stand? Genetics or choice?
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Fordama » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:35 pm

GOODave wrote:I didn't say you won't perceive it as important to me. What I said was, I don't care what word you mandate for everyone else.
Not me--your fight is with the various dictionaries that the English speaking world uses.

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This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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AsIfYouKnew
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:43 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:
Can you speak for ND7...the question was addressed specifically to him. What is your own stand? Genetics or choice?


Actually, if you go up about half a dozen posts, you will see that you were in fact responding to me.

However, I think your question is flawed, in that you pose that those are the only choices. One may not in fact have a choice in the matter, but still not have a genetic condition. It could be an environmental consequence that leaves them little choice at all.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Parrotpaul
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Parrotpaul » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:43 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Actually, if you go up about half a dozen posts, you will see that you were in fact responding to me.

However, I think your question is flawed, in that you pose that those are the only choices. One may not in fact have a choice in the matter, but still not have a genetic condition. It could be an environmental consequence that leaves them little choice at all.
Flawed or not, you don't answer the question. If you could rewrite that question to make it less flawed, how would you word it?

Let's get right to it them

You are profoundly influenced through your church and your religious beliefs to view homosexuality as an abomination...something odd and out of whack an individual conciously chooses to do, and as such they should get zip, zero, none, nada, nothing no encouragement or consideration nor expect to be accepted as being equal to straights in terms of being allowed to marry; Did I miss something?

There are environments, choices, curiosities, bi-sexuality, thrills, coercion. and dozens more reasons why two or more members of the same sex do the wild thing with each other. Does that make any of them homosexuals...nope. Some just enjoy a much wider sexual scope than what is a more traditionally acceptable American's sexual focus. Then there are those homsexuals who, for a variety of reasons decide to reject their homosexuality, or maybe they are straights who thought they were gay, but really aren't and want to mea culpa their way back into being straight..


There are individuals who are born who do become homosexuals...want to remain homsexuals, many times are conflicted by their feelings for others of their sex, weather or succumb to lots of anxieties and many times abuse...some never resolve their conflicts while others understand and accept their sexuality and make adjustments to accomodate that sexuality especially in a rather hostile environment. Many go through their lives thoroughly enjoying their partners and their lifestyles, and adapting gracefully, and some a little more assertively, to any and all challenges to their legitimacy. Does that make them homosexuals? I believe it does. I believe there is a genetic predispoistion for a million nuances and diversities to a human being...that, I believe, is one..just like humungous mammaries and gorgeous long legs come with the package mom and dad put together to make the hottie on the beach that makes Trog giddy and causes him to drool on his chest.
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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AsIfYouKnew
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:56 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:Flawed or not, you don't answer the question. If you could rewrite that question to make it less flawed, how would you word it?

Let's get right to it them

You are profoundly influenced through your church and your religious beliefs to view homosexuality as an abomination...something odd and out of whack an individual conciously chooses to do, and as such they should get zip, zero, none, nada, nothing no encouragement or consideration nor expect to be accepted as being equal to straights in terms of being allowed to marry; Did I miss something?

There are environments, choices, curiosities, bi-sexuality, thrills, coercion. and dozens more reasons why two or more members of the same sex do the wild thing with each other. Does that make any of them homosexuals...nope. Some just enjoy a much wider sexual scope than what is a more traditionally acceptable American's sexual focus. Then there are those homsexuals who, for a variety of reasons decide to reject their homosexuality, or maybe they are straights who thought they were gay, but really aren't and want to mea culpa their way back into being straight..


There are individuals who are born who do become homosexuals...want to remain homsexuals, many times are conflicted by their feelings for others of their sex, weather or succumb to lots of anxieties and many times abuse...some never resolve their conflicts while others understand and accept their sexuality and make adjustments to accomodate that sexuality especially in a rather hostile environment. Many go through their lives thoroughly enjoying their partners and their lifestyles, and adapting gracefully, and some a little more assertively, to any and all challenges to their legitimacy. Does that make them homosexuals? I believe it does. I believe there is a genetic predispoistion for a million nuances and diversities to a human being...that, I believe, is one..just like humungous mammaries and gorgeous long legs come with the package mom and dad put together to make the hottie on the beach that makes Trog giddy and causes him to drool on his chest.


I searched but failed to find a point, or a scintilla of fact. Just a bunch of opinion.

Whether my belief system is based upon a religious perspective is not relevant to the question. You assert that you believe there is a genetic component, but provide no evidence. I call you on that, and you go off on an anti-Catholic (and untrue) rant.

The Catholic Church has a great deal of support and options for homosexuals, but they first have to acknowledge that their tendencies are a hinderence to their relationship with God. Other than being politically incorrect, I don't see any evidence posed by you or anyone that they are not flawed.

To be clear, I am not positioning myself as unflawed. I am indeed flawed in many ways. However, my acceptance of those flaws, and willingness to work to correct them, is what I feel makes the difference.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Parrotpaul » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:19 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
I searched but failed to find a point, or a scintilla of fact. Just a bunch of opinion. And I'll bet eight donuts, you can't provide one more shred of evidence than I have.

Whether my belief system is based upon a religious perspective is not relevant to the question. You assert that you believe there is a genetic component, but provide no evidence. I call you on that, and you go off on an anti-Catholic (and untrue) rant.
And you believe many things about a deity, and mysteries, and another world that you can't prove either..so where does that leave us...opinions.

The Catholic Church has a great deal of support and options for homosexuals, but they first have to acknowledge that their tendencies are a hinderence to their relationship with God. Of course....that's one of those influences or pressures I mentioned that many succumb to, and that's their choice. I don't personally believe homosexuality was their choice. Other than being politically incorrect, I don't see any evidence posed by you or anyone that they are not flawed. And that works as well for what you have stated. Next?

To be clear, I am not positioning myself as unflawed. I am indeed flawed in many ways. However, my acceptance of those flaws, and willingness to work to correct them, is what I feel makes the difference.

It makes the difference to what?
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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AsIfYouKnew
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:00 pm

Parrotpaul wrote:It makes the difference to what?


Paul, I think if you objectively look at what I post, it is mostly related to facts. Let's keep the conversation on that, and out of the opinion realm, and we might move forward with this.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift

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Parrotpaul
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Parrotpaul » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:08 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Paul, I think if you objectively look at what I post, it is mostly related to facts. Let's keep the conversation on that, and out of the opinion realm, and we might move forward with this.

And what happens to some savvy argumentation? There are too many gray areas surrounding most of the facts you want that to remove even a few of them from the debate forum would be tantamount to committing intellectual suicide in addition to being some pretty boring exchanges. Don't you like to masturbate the old brain tissue now and then to see just how juicy it can get?

So one more time, and then I'll go away....It makes a difference to what?
"I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education." John Locke

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby GOODave » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:33 pm

Parrotpaul wrote: Let's get right to it them

You are profoundly influenced through your church and your religious beliefs to view homosexuality as an abomination
Potentially limiting: Since you do not view anything untoward about homosexuality (at least that is what you want everyone to believe), you have absolutely no idea why someone else would. You're shooting in the dark and missing the mark.
Parrotpaul wrote:...something odd and out of whack an individual conciously chooses to do, and as such they should get zip, zero, none, nada, nothing no encouragement or consideration nor expect to be accepted as being equal to straights in terms of being allowed to marry; Did I miss something?
Yes, you missed the part where you're supposed to be convincing and not writing some high school prose about something you don't understand.

Parrotpaul wrote:There are environments, choices, curiosities, bi-sexuality, thrills, coercion. and dozens more reasons why two or more members of the same sex do the wild thing with each other. Does that make any of them homosexuals
Yes. "homo" = "same" sex with the same gender is, by definition, homosexual, whether or not you choose to understand the language.
Parrotpaul wrote:Then there are those homsexuals who, for a variety of reasons decide to reject their homosexuality, or maybe they are straights who thought they were gay, but really aren't and want to mea culpa their way back into being straight..
Your statement presupposes that for which there is zero, zip, nada evidence. You don't know why someone becomes a homosexual and you're struggling here to fill in your blanks.

Parrotpaul wrote:There are individuals who are born who do become homosexuals...want to remain homsexuals, many times are conflicted by their feelings for others of their sex, weather or succumb to lots of anxieties and many times abuse...some never resolve their conflicts while others understand and accept their sexuality and make adjustments to accomodate that sexuality especially in a rather hostile environment.
Getting less so ... so this excuse will continue to diminish in meaningfulness.
Parrotpaul wrote:Many go through their lives thoroughly enjoying their partners and their lifestyles, and adapting gracefully, and some a little more assertively, to any and all challenges to their legitimacy.
You're guessing again. All you have to go by is your observation of their outward appearance unless you are a homosexual.
Parrotpaul wrote:Does that make them homosexuals? I believe it does.
I thought you believed nothing [u]makes[/i] them homosexual. Fact is, they are a homosexual if they have sex with the same gender.
Parrotpaul wrote:I believe there is a genetic predispoistion for a million nuances and diversities to a human being...
You "believe" but you have no evidence at all that "genetic predisposition" leads to homosexuality.
Parrotpaul wrote:...that, I believe, is one..just like humungous mammaries and gorgeous long legs come with the package mom and dad put together to make the hottie on the beach that makes Trog giddy and causes him to drool on his chest.
boy you just can't end it like a decent human being, can you: You have to take a shot at Trog. :roll:

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby joefutbol » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:55 pm

GOODave wrote: "believe" but you have no evidence at all that "genetic predisposition" leads to homosexuality.


Scientists have plenty of evidence. But, then again, so does Darwin..... so I don't expect a guy like you to be very receptive.

There was a study conducted within the last 20 years on twins and homosexuality. The study found that among the 56 sets of identical twins with at least one of the brothers being homosexual, 29 of them had a homosexual twin. Out of 54 sets of fraternal twins, only twelve sets were made up exclusively of homosexuals. To think that genetic predisposition doesn't play a huge role in "leading to homosexuality" would require one to ignore logic and science. In other words, it would require religion.

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Fordama » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:16 pm

GOODave wrote:Yes. "homo" = "same" sex with the same gender is, by definition, homosexual, whether or not you choose to understand the language.
Actually, no. Straight people can have gay sex.

Being a homosexual or heterosexual is an orientation, not a behavior. That's why even people who abstain from sex still have sexual orientations separate from asexuality.

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Fordama » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:19 pm

joefutbol wrote:
Scientists have plenty of evidence. But, then again, so does Darwin..... so I don't expect a guy like you to be very receptive.

There was a study conducted within the last 20 years on twins and homosexuality. The study found that among the 56 sets of identical twins with at least one of the brothers being homosexual, 29 of them had a homosexual twin. Out of 54 sets of fraternal twins, only twelve sets were made up exclusively of homosexuals. To think that genetic predisposition doesn't play a huge role in "leading to homosexuality" would require one to ignore logic and science. In other words, it would require religion.

Indeed there seems to be both genetic (or biological) causes, but the "nurture" possibility still cannot be totally discounted.

However, the one thing that is known is that it isn't a choice. You don't consciously choose your sexuality.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby GOODave » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:33 am

joefutbol wrote:
Scientists have plenty of evidence. But, then again, so does Darwin
Heh, heh, heh ... Here, let me pass you a shovel: It will speed your digging.

joefutbol wrote:There was a study conducted within the last 20 years on twins and homosexuality. The study found that among the 56 sets of identical twins with at least one of the brothers being homosexual, 29 of them had a homosexual twin. Out of 54 sets of fraternal twins, only twelve sets were made up exclusively of homosexuals. To think that genetic predisposition doesn't play a huge role in "leading to homosexuality" would require one to ignore logic and science. In other words, it would require religion.

Do you mean this study reported in the American Journal of Psychiatry?
All analyses demonstrated familial resemblance for sexual orientation. Resemblance was greater in the monozygotic twins than in the dizygotic twins or in the dizygotic twins plus nontwin siblings.


Or are you referring to the previous studies to which the journal refers:
Although previous studies have suggested that sexual orientation is influenced by familial factors, which may be partly genetic, these studies have relied on unrepresentative and potentially biased samples ...

...The interpretation of prior twin studies of sexual orientation can be questioned on methodological grounds. Kallmann’s early study (1) largely sampled subjects from correctional and psychiatric institutions. The two studies of Bailey and colleagues on male (2) and female (3) sexual orientation obtained subjects through advertisements in homophilic publications, raising concerns about representativeness. To our knowledge, only one study of sexual orientation has used a general population volunteer twin registry (4).


You are such a dupe. Go back to playing your video games in your dark little room, son.

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:02 am

GOODave wrote:Heh, heh, heh ... Here, let me pass you a shovel: It will speed your digging.


Do you mean this study reported in the American Journal of Psychiatry?


Or are you referring to the previous studies to which the journal refers:


You are such a dupe. Go back to playing your video games in your dark little room, son.


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When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:05 am

Dave kind of cut off the conclusion, "Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

So no game, no set, no match.

Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:11 am

Fordama wrote:Dave kind of cut off the conclusion, "Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

So no game, no set, no match.

Fordama


Actually, yes it is. No clear genetic bias towards homosexuality, which is what we have been saying. At best, the study is inconclusive. Hence, no factual basis for the assertion.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift

http://www.civilityinamerica.org/en/index.html

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby GOODave » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:41 am

Fordama wrote:Dave kind of cut off the conclusion, "Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

So no game, no set, no match.

Fordama

OHHHH, so close...

The REASON I included the link to the abstract was so that you could go there and read, for yourself, anything I might have left out that you would have included: So I didn't "kind of cut off" anything: I provided full disclosure; and if what I reproduced enticed you to read further, well so much the better. I'm well aware that a lot of folks in this community WILL read most or all of an article (or in this case, abstract) to try to find what they consider fatal flaws.

To yours, it was a valiant attempt, but I think you might have missed the earlier part that noted:
...which may be partly genetic
The "conclusion" you believe I "kind of cut off" was based on the earlier treatment of all the studies.

You might also have missed, further down, one of the five weaknesses of this study to be
...Second, despite the reasonable sample sizes, the relative rarity of nonheterosexual sexual orientation in general population samples results in quite low statistical power


And, finally, you must have missed the equivocation further down in that abstract that noted:
These results suggest that genetic factors may provide an important influence on sexual orientation.

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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Postby Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:45 am

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Actually, yes it is. No clear genetic bias towards homosexuality, which is what we have been saying. At best, the study is inconclusive. Hence, no factual basis for the assertion.
Which part of "partly genetic" did you find confusing? Familial factors could be completely genetic--that's not ruled out in this study.

Fordama
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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