Homo's pick a fight

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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:48 am

GOODave wrote: You might also have missed, further down, one of the five weaknesses of this study to be
Peer reviewed studies such sections. You're trying to make conclusions from the caveats (which are calls for further research ) instead of the conclusion--which is the purpose of "the conclusion."

Fordama
Last edited by Fordama on Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GOODave
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by GOODave » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:51 am

Fordama wrote:Which part of "partly genetic" did you find confusing?
Ack'shully, there great Defender of the People, the phrase they used was "...at least partly genetic." Which is more equivocal than I'm comfortable with. But, nevertleless, they almost completely removed that possibility (as I said earlier) further down in the abstract with "...genetic factors MAY provide important..."

This abstract doesn't do what you are earnestly attempting to make it do.

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AsIfYouKnew
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:06 am

Fordama wrote:Which part of "partly genetic" did you find confusing? Familial factors could be completely genetic--that's not ruled out in this study.

Fordama
That could be read many different ways, kind of like "partly pregnant".
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:10 am

this is what it actually says:

Although previous studies have suggested that sexual orientation is influenced by familial factors, which may be partly genetic, these studies have relied on unrepresentative and potentially biased samples ...

...The interpretation of prior twin studies of sexual orientation can be questioned on methodological grounds. Kallmann’s early study (1) largely sampled subjects from correctional and psychiatric institutions. The two studies of Bailey and colleagues on male (2) and female (3) sexual orientation obtained subjects through advertisements in homophilic publications, raising concerns about representativeness. To our knowledge, only one study of sexual orientation has used a general population volunteer twin registry (4).



For those that could follow that, they are not saying that they are partially genetic. They are saying that familial factors may be partially genetic.
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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:58 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:this is what it actually says:

Although previous studies have suggested that sexual orientation is influenced by familial factors, which may be partly genetic, these studies have relied on unrepresentative and potentially biased samples ...

...The interpretation of prior twin studies of sexual orientation can be questioned on methodological grounds. Kallmann’s early study (1) largely sampled subjects from correctional and psychiatric institutions. The two studies of Bailey and colleagues on male (2) and female (3) sexual orientation obtained subjects through advertisements in homophilic publications, raising concerns about representativeness. To our knowledge, only one study of sexual orientation has used a general population volunteer twin registry (4).



For those that could follow that, they are not saying that they are partially genetic. They are saying that familial factors may be partially genetic.
That's what they are saying in the introduction about previous studies, not this particular study.

Introductions
are important, but they aren't the conclusions.

"CONCLUSIONS: Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

No equivocation there at all. No fancy interpretation needed.

Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:27 pm

Fordama wrote: That's what they are saying in the introduction about previous studies, not this particular study.

Introductions
are important, but they aren't the conclusions.

"CONCLUSIONS: Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

No equivocation there at all. No fancy interpretation needed.

Fordama
Thanks, Ford. You made me go and read the whole damn thing. I want my 10 minutes back.

Wherease there does seem to be a correllation, it is also clear from the caveats that there are some significant issues with this study.

Secondly, if this were that strong or conclusive of a study, it would be blasted all over the MSM by the Gay lobby. I don't see that at all. Not being a psychologist, I will have to wait for someone educated in the field to interpret it.
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by pshaw » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:28 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:Thanks, Ford. You made me go and read the whole damn thing. I want my 10 minutes back.
Are you from some parallel universe where people declare "game, set and match" before even reading what they're commenting on? (Clues: Does Spock have a beard? Does Sulu like women?)
AsIfYouKnew wrote:Wherease there does seem to be a correllation,
Voila! Now go forth and pontificate before reading no more!
AsIfYouKnew wrote:it is also clear from the caveats that there are some significant issues with this study.
Secondly, if this were that strong or conclusive of a study, it would be blasted all over the MSM by the Gay lobby. I don't see that at all. Not being a psychologist, I will have to wait for someone educated in the field to interpret it.
Now that you've learned that it actually supports Ford's argument and not yours, suddenly there are "significant issues with this study" and it's not "that strong or conclusive". Amazing how that works...just a few hours ago when you were trusting Dave to do your reading for you it was a perfectly fine study.

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by ND7 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:52 pm

The long and short (sorry) of this seems to be there is no fact supporting either side. So why not let science figure it out. Scientifically and biologically homosexuals are doing it wrong.

People are wired to procreate, all normally functioning people. Acting otherwise is contrary their being, and unnatural..... Have at it. :shock:
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:18 pm

pshaw wrote:Are you from some parallel universe where people declare "game, set and match" before even reading what they're commenting on? (Clues: Does Spock have a beard? Does Sulu like women?)
Voila! Now go forth and pontificate before reading no more!
Now that you've learned that it actually supports Ford's argument and not yours, suddenly there are "significant issues with this study" and it's not "that strong or conclusive". Amazing how that works...just a few hours ago when you were trusting Dave to do your reading for you it was a perfectly fine study.
Go to your corner and try not to be an arse. Just for five minutes. I believe in you. If that fails, just go pound sand.

The study is not conclusive, as there are major caveats. For the record, I don't trust Dave to do my reading, but I was working from my own recollection of that or similar studies done. The fact is there is no conclusive evidence that there is a genetic predisposition that is determinate of one's sexual orientation.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by AsIfYouKnew » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:19 pm

ND7 wrote:The long and short (sorry) of this seems to be there is no fact supporting either side. So why not let science figure it out. Scientifically and biologically homosexuals are doing it wrong.

People are wired to procreate, all normally functioning people. Acting otherwise is contrary their being, and unnatural..... Have at it. :shock:
If homosexuality were genetic, don't you think they would have weened themselves out of the gene pool a long time ago?
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:21 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Thanks, Ford. You made me go and read the whole damn thing. I want my 10 minutes back.
Ha--it could have been worse! This morning on another board the Supreme Court decision on McCain-Feingold came up. He posted the transcript of the oral arguments--about 80 pages. At least they were good sized print and double-spaced.

Yeah, I wasted some serious time there!

Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by ND7 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:21 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
If homosexuality were genetic, don't you think they would have weened themselves out of the gene pool a long time ago?
Darwin answered that question. :D
"What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it, but that I believe it....I trust I make myself obscure."
St. Thomas More, A Man for All Seasons.

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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:23 pm

ND7 wrote:The long and short (sorry) of this seems to be there is no fact supporting either side. So why not let science figure it out. Scientifically and biologically homosexuals are doing it wrong.
I think society is getting it wrong by getting their knickers in a perpetual twist over it.

Homosexuality occurs in numerous species, not just ours. However, we can't seem to let it be.

Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by ND7 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:36 pm

Fordama wrote:I think society is getting it wrong by getting their knickers in a perpetual twist over it.

Homosexuality occurs in numerous species, not just ours. However, we can't seem to let it be.

Fordama
But the other species aren't rational beings, created in the image of God, with an immortal soul . That's what I believe.
"What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it, but that I believe it....I trust I make myself obscure."
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:39 pm

ND7 wrote: But the other species aren't rational beings, created in the image of God, with an immortal soul . That's what I believe.
Neither are we, though we do occasionally give being rational the ol' college try.

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by ND7 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:54 pm

Fordama wrote:Neither are we, though we do occasionally give being rational the ol' college try.

Fordama
...........Ooooooooooh yes we are.
"What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it, but that I believe it....I trust I make myself obscure."
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by pshaw » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:58 pm

AsIfYouKnew wrote:
Go to your corner and try not to be an arse. Just for five minutes. I believe in you. If that fails, just go pound sand.

The study is not conclusive, as there are major caveats. For the record, I don't trust Dave to do my reading, but I was working from my own recollection of that or similar studies done. The fact is there is no conclusive evidence that there is a genetic predisposition that is determinate of one's sexual orientation.
Looks like Uhura's about to conduct a field study of her own...

Image

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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by ND7 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:10 pm

pshaw wrote: Looks like Uhura's about to conduct a field study of her own...

Image
Everyone knows Sulu is homosexual, this just biology at work. 8)
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by GOODave » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:48 am

Fordama wrote: That's what they are saying in the introduction about previous studies, not this particular study.

Introductions
are important, but they aren't the conclusions.

"CONCLUSIONS: Familial factors, which are at least partly genetic, influence sexual orientation."

No equivocation there at all. No fancy interpretation needed.

Fordama
...no "reading the whole thing" apparently needed by you anyway.

Again:

You might also have missed, further down, one of the five weaknesses of this study to be
...Second, despite the reasonable sample sizes, the relative rarity of nonheterosexual sexual orientation in general population samples results in quite low statistical power

Did you notice the study on which you're trying to hang your whole argument has LOW STATISTICAL POWER?

And, finally, you must have missed the equivocation further down in that abstract that noted:
These results suggest that genetic factors may provide an important influence on sexual orientation.
Did you notice MAY [sic] provide?

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Fordama
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Re: Homo's pick a fight

Post by Fordama » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:57 am

I guess the whole concept of the different parts of a study are have escaped you.

Fordama
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