Aliso Niguel - Racist?

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joefutbol
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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:17 am

Case in point...

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by MDDad » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:28 am

Those photos from the Los Alamitos-Banning game reminded me that for decades the Los Alamitos uniform colors have been red, white and blue. I think they should be forced to change them, as that color combination may make some players and fans of opposing teams uneasy. Maybe changing the blue to green would make them and some of our sensitive posters more comfortable.

And flying the flag and singing the national anthem at high school games is bound to make some people fear deportation, so there's a strong argument to be made for eliminating them as well. In fact perhaps any display of patriotism by high school teenagers a few days before the anniversary of 9/11 should be made a misdemeanor. Yeah, that'll fix that pesky racism problem.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by SK80 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:33 am

Then at Joe you need to prove "intention", if you claim semantics it is we are all caught up in... example, "We Love White" is one banner in between "We Love Red" another "We Love Blue". Can you tell me if there was "intention" there in that one banner or simply a line among others?
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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by John Q. Public » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:34 am

Bick wrote: JQP also sniped it.
Just observing that it's kind of dumb to chant "USA, USA" for a touchdown at a high school football game. But, they're teenagers, I guess.
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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by MDDad » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:44 am

They weren't chanting for a touchdown. They were chanting because it was a "Patriotism Day" four days before 9/11.

And yeah, when you get a thousand hyped up teenagers in a stadium on a Friday night, some of them are going to act like morons.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:02 am

SK80 wrote:Then at Joe you need to prove "intention", if you claim semantics it is we are all caught up in... example, "We Love White" is one banner in between "We Love Red" another "We Love Blue". Can you tell me if there was "intention" there in that one banner or simply a line among others?
I'm well aware what the banner was in between. I was born and raised in this country, and I've celebrated every patriotic holiday as long as I can remember. I served in the military and have attended or been a part of a countless number of patriotic events during and since my service. Not once have I ever seen those words written that way with respect to our nation's colors. I'm willing to concede, however, it was an innocent and creative way to display patriotism.

I will also concede that the "We gonna Trump ya" sign was nothing more than a political pun with no political or racial motivation.

I will also concede that the "Trump 2020" sign was merely a display of fiscal conservatism from a young man who just learned about the Laffer curve in honors econ class, and there was no racist motivation behind it.

I will also concede that the "Build the wall" sign that was not allowed to be displayed was a reference to the Aliso Viejo defensive line and had nothing to do with Mexicans.

And I will most certainly concede that chanting "USA" is not racist.

None of those things, in a vacuum, is racist. But when you put them all together in context, I start to interpret their meanings a little differently. The problem is, you're looking at everything in a vacuum.

You conceded that intent must be proven, and I agree and made that point earlier. However, even though none of us knows for sure, so many people seem to be so certain that nothing that happened on Friday at the game was racist. I'm not saying I know for certain either way, but given everything in context is sure does seem to me like the Santa Ana principle is at least a little justified.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by dont be that guy » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:28 am

joefutbol wrote:Well, when it's accompanied by signs that say "We gonna Trump ya" and "We love white" and racist remarks when the team was leaving the stadium (assuming that part is true), it kind of changes the ball game.

I think people are too caught up in the semantics here.
Semantics are incredibly important. It’s the difference in mentioning the “we gonna Trump ya” sign and failing to mention ‘Bring back Obama’ sign.

Or “we love white” without mentioning the “we love red” and “we love blue” signs next to it because when the national (and social) media get a hold of the story the signs become “Make America white again”.

That nugget of BS was actually reported.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:35 am

dont be that guy wrote:It’s the difference in mentioning the “we gonna Trump ya” sign and failing to mention ‘Bring back Obama’ sign.
The "We gonna Trump ya" sign was put up long before the game and was clearly directed toward the opponent. You'd have a point if it was in response to the Obama sign.
dont be that guy wrote: Or “we love white” without mentioning the “we love red” and “we love blue”
I addressed that. No amount of debate or discussion of semantics changes the intent behind the signs, chants, and slurs (alleged). You have to make up your own mind about that.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by dont be that guy » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:44 am

“No amount of debate or discussion of semantics changes the intent behind the signs, chants, and slurs (alleged). You have to make up your own mind about that.“

The intent was pretty clear. It’s something that they, and dozens of other schools have done for years without incident. The only difference was SA principal took offense, the AN principal quickly addressed, and the SA still felt the need to go to the media (even though he told the AN principal everything was fine.)

I’m pretty sure those same signs and chants of USA would have gone on if they were playing CDM or San Clemente.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:50 am

Are you suggesting the intent was clear because it's gone on for years without incident? There's no way this time could be any different? That's pretty narrow-minded of you.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by MDDad » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:56 am

No, Joe, what's narrow-minded is your belief that you know the intent and motivations of each of those hundreds of kids and fans. You don't. Like all of us, you filter this minimal information through what you want to believe and come up with a conclusion. However, it's no more credible or necessarily correct than the conclusions of anybody else.

The bottom line is that there was no single, united intent of those people. There were hundreds of them, and people who are always looking for racism or reasons to be offended will find them.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by dont be that guy » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:06 am

I'm suggesting the intent was clear because there is no clear racism here. Two political signs and a USA chant is a huge reach.

I'm being open minded. I saw what the SA principle said and he admitted that he didn't really see anything like a "build the Wall" sign or chant. If he had, then he'd have a point.

I'd be willing to bet that most AN student didn't even know that they were playing Santa Ana until they got to the field or knew that a majority of their team was hispanic. The kids are there to have a good time, the football game is almost secondary.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:09 am

MDDad wrote: No, Joe, what's narrow-minded is your belief that you know the intent and motivations of each of those hundreds of kids and fans.
I stated more than once that I don't.
MDDad wrote: Like all of us, you filter this minimal information through what you want to believe and come up with a conclusion.
Obviously.
MDDad wrote: However, it's no more credible or necessarily correct than the conclusions of anybody else.
Again, I stated that more than once.
MDDad wrote: The bottom line is that there was no single, united intent of those people.
Clearly.
MDDad wrote: There were hundreds of them, and people who are always looking for racism or reasons to be offended will find them.
Or, there was racism to be found this time. Since you didn't see it the first, second, or third time I wrote it I will say it again - I don't know if there was, but it sure is possible.

We all filter minimal information and come up with a biased conclusion. It just seems that most people, especially around here, reach the conclusion before they do the filtering.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by SK80 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:29 am

I would like to say that the conjuring and speculating of this event is and endless game, was anyone on this board ACTUALLY there?

Just sayin', just askin'....
"don't try to tell people what I think when they can read what I actually said and I won't return the favor, okay?" ~ O. Bongo

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by dont be that guy » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:53 am

"We all filter minimal information and come up with a biased conclusion. It just seems that most people, especially around here, reach the conclusion before they do the filtering."

Absolutely. This has become a national story because no one did any filtering. The press immediately jumped on SA's side with little or no information. Every article mentions "Build the Wall" because then the story becomes a bigger deal. Nevermind that it's never been confirmed by Jeff Bishop or anyone else.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by SK80 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:00 am

welcome to the new age of social media, leave your filters at home!
"don't try to tell people what I think when they can read what I actually said and I won't return the favor, okay?" ~ O. Bongo

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by MDDad » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm

don't be that guy wrote:The press immediately jumped...
Exactly, and the press does so for two reasons. One is that racism, or the possibility of racism, is as sexy as it gets when it comes to people paying attention to a story. The other is that the press has to beat the rest of the press to the scoop. Coming in second doesn't fly, and if that means not vetting or confirming what's been rumored or reported because of the haste to air it, well, so be it.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by Bick » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:35 pm

dont be that guy wrote: Absolutely. This has become a national story because no one did any filtering. The press immediately jumped on SA's side with little or no information. Every article mentions "Build the Wall" because then the story becomes a bigger deal. Nevermind that it's never been confirmed by Jeff Bishop or anyone else.
This became a national story because all it takes is an accusation of racism. Couple that with the words "white" and "trump", and all the boxes have been checked for a firestorm, regardless of the context or intent.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by joefutbol » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:40 pm

I agree completely, Bick. But this isn't a phenomenon that's exlcusive to the topic of racism.

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Re: Aliso Niguel - Racist?

Post by SK80 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:57 pm

The press has been the biggest "FAIL" to the public for the most part of a decade now, it has been my biggest disappointment in our entire system, especially within the realm of coexist, love thy neighbor, respect your fellow man and neighbor. A close second runs our politicians and their big government tool. Add the social media factor to them both and BOOM!

If you dropped the media and the politician from the debate I bet you find you have a lot more in common, many more agreements and actually like much more your what you think of as your opposition. Think about it.
"don't try to tell people what I think when they can read what I actually said and I won't return the favor, okay?" ~ O. Bongo

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