More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte
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More trouble in Syria..

Post by Troglodyte »

The price for our failing to support the rebels.

Syria activists say jihadis seize missile base
Published OC Register . 12, 2012 10:26 AM ET
By BEN HUBBARD, Associated Press
http://hosted2.ap.org/CAANR/162267dc068 ... 847c446e68

BEIRUT (AP) — A shadowy jihadi group believed to be linked to al-Qaida fought alongside rebels who seized a government missile defense base in Syria on Friday, activists said, heightening fears that extremists are taking advantage of the chaos to acquire advanced weapons.

A report by a correspondent with the Arabic satellite network Al-Jazeera who visited the base Friday said Jabhat al-Nusra had seized the base. The report showed a number of missiles and charred buildings, as fighters covered their faces with black cloths.

Little is known about Jabhat al-Nusra, or the Support Front, which began claiming attacks in Syria earlier this year in postings on jihadi forums often used by al-Qaida. While neither group has officially acknowledged the other, analysts say al-Nusra's tactics, jihadist rhetoric and use of al-Qaida forums point to an affiliation.

Western powers — and many Syrians — worry that Islamist extremists are playing an increasing role in Syria's civil war, which started in March 2011 as a mostly peaceful uprising against President Bashar Assad.

Despite their opposition to the Assad regime, the U.S. and others have cited the presence of extremists among the rebels as a reason not to supply them with weapons. Rebel leaders argue that the lack of military aid leaves a vacuum that extremists can exploit.

One Aleppo activist said the rebels had taken all the munitions they could from the newly captured base, and he hoped they could find a way to use the missiles against Assad's air force.

"We have asked all countries to help us with anti-aircraft weapons and no one has, so hopefully these will help," said the activist, Mohammed Saeed.
Associated Press
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote:The price for our failing to support the rebels.

Syria activists say jihadis seize missile base
Published OC Register . 12, 2012 10:26 AM ET
By BEN HUBBARD, Associated Press
http://hosted2.ap.org/CAANR/162267dc068 ... 847c446e68

BEIRUT (AP) — A shadowy jihadi group believed to be linked to al-Qaida fought alongside rebels who seized a government missile defense base in Syria on Friday, activists said, heightening fears that extremists are taking advantage of the chaos to acquire advanced weapons.

...
I don't think we have any right at all to be nation re-building in the Middle East. If those people want to live their 'backwards' lifestyle, I say let them. What will most likely happen is, time will force change on those 'backwards' countries. And if it doesn't, so what?

BTW, the leaders of those "rebels" are probably members of (or working with or backed by) SocialistInternational.org. Be careful what you wish for...
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Did you notice how Ryan was speechless when asked what a Romney/Ryan administration would do?
Stay loose, and be a little afraid.

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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Wabash wrote:Did you notice how Ryan was speechless when asked what a Romney/Ryan administration would do?
Did you notice this thread isn't about the debate?
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote:The price for our failing to support the rebels.

Despite their opposition to the Assad regime, the U.S. and others have cited the presence of extremists among the rebels as a reason not to supply them with weapons. Rebel leaders argue that the lack of military aid leaves a vacuum that extremists can exploit.
Which price would you have us pay? We supplied arms to Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. I don't think that worked out so well, and I wouldn't like us to keep repeating the same mistake. If we want to help the rebels militarily, we can use drones, establish a naval blockade, set up a no-fly zone, and other options, that won't result in arms falling into potentially unfriendly hands.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Vilepagan wrote:
Which price would you have us pay? We supplied arms to Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. I don't think that worked out so well, and I wouldn't like us to keep repeating the same mistake. If we want to help the rebels militarily, we can use drones, establish a naval blockade, set up a no-fly zone, and other options, that won't result in arms falling into potentially unfriendly hands.
Exactly what we should be doing to help the Syrian population. Some real time satillite imaging and tactiacal advice would help a lot too. Anything but our boots on the ground. Dealing with the middle East is kinda like the cops dealing with a domestic disturbance. Very carefully, fully knowing that they both will probably turn on them at any time.
Without our input the only help they are getting is from the terrorists. Guess who will be their new best friends when this is over.
Back in the '50s, General Ho Chi Minh came knocking on the Oval Office door asking for help to get the French out of his country. Eisenhower threw him out. You know how that turned out.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote: Exactly what we should be doing to help the Syrian population.
No No NO, we should NOT be over their nation-rebuilding. ](*,) And especially when it looks as if we are working with Socialist International and the UN. Those new governments are almost certainly going to be governments that Socialist International (and the UN) approve of.

If they want to live their backwards lifestyle, so what?... Let them live that way.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Ya know....why be in such a hurry? If we go in there and blow up everything then we will commit to rebuild what we destroyed. We can't afford another war. Let them do all the destroying, and when they have kicked the shi!t out of each other, then we can offer some humanitarian aid.. ...we'll establish diplomatics relations with the new government which we will then grease with some US dollars...no loss of personal, materials, or billions shooting at things ane people....same with Egypt and Libya....wait until the dust settles, and thenn we can take a look.

If we send in planes and troops we will kill more than the two sides presently duking it out....we don't screw around when we kill people....always opt to kill people only after all other solutions have been exhausted.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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kramer wrote:
No No NO, we should NOT be over their nation-rebuilding. ](*,) And especially when it looks as if we are working with Socialist International and the UN. Those new governments are almost certainly going to be governments that Socialist International (and the UN) approve of.

If they want to live their backwards lifestyle, so what?... Let them live that way.
Whose nation building, or rebuilding< Kramer?? The Syrian citizens were taking on Syria's military wit5h a few hunting rifles and third hand AK-47s. They knew little about tactics until some of Assaad's soldiers deserted and joined the rebels. Sure they would like some modern weapons and US troops. They would have gladly accepted US aid in the refugee camps, some real time satillite imaging, and some intel that we would haqve passed on from Mossad (who really knew what was going on in Syria, but they couldn't acknowlege directly). They would have loved us to declare a no fly zone, but the would have included our direct involvement.
Who came to their aid?? Al Quada, Iran, jihadists, all backed by Russia and China. The people wante frreedom from a tyrant. It looks like they are gonna trade Assaad for the Muslim Brotherhood.
The only light at the ennd of the tunnel is what's happening in Libya right now, where the locals ghot fed u8p with the militias and jihadists, and are trying to run them out of the country.
What was surprizing is the Pakistanis reaction to the talaban shooting that 14 year old girl. Guess the hardliners inched one toe over the line there. Even the prime minister and the military, who backed the terrorists, got pissed off over that.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote:Whose nation building, or rebuilding< Kramer?? The Syrian citizens were taking on Syria's military wit5h a few hunting rifles and third hand AK-47s. They knew little about tactics until some of Assaad's soldiers deserted and joined the rebels. Sure they would like some modern weapons and US troops. They would have gladly accepted US aid in the refugee camps, some real time satillite imaging, and some intel that we would haqve passed on from Mossad (who really knew what was going on in Syria, but they couldn't acknowlege directly). They would have loved us to declare a no fly zone, but the would have included our direct involvement.
Who came to their aid?? Al Quada, Iran, jihadists, all backed by Russia and China. The people wante frreedom from a tyrant. It looks like they are gonna trade Assaad for the Muslim Brotherhood.
The only light at the ennd of the tunnel is what's happening in Libya right now, where the locals ghot fed u8p with the militias and jihadists, and are trying to run them out of the country.
I have to ask, don't you think that we are supporting them behind-the-scenes in some way? I think we have to have some CIA guys working with them at the moment. One reason we don't want to do so openly is because that will piss off Russia, and they might increase their support of the Syrian governmnet in response thus escalating the conflict.
What was surprizing is the Pakistanis reaction to the talaban shooting that 14 year old girl.
Yeah, but the ones who are the most surprised would probably be the Taliban.
Guess the hardliners inched one toe over the line there.
I think they jumped over with both feet and landed in a pool of quicksand.
Even the prime minister and the military, who backed the terrorists, got pissed off over that.
I can't agree with you here. The PM and the military want good relations with the West, but a significant minority of the population concentrated in certain tribal areas tolerated and to a degree 'backed" the terrorists. This made it impossible for the PM and military to move against the terrorists in a meaningful way. If the terrorists lose some of this support the PM and the military can operate more freely against the terrorists and that's exactly what they want. From a political standpoint the PM and the military are very glad something like the shooting of this girl happened.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Vilepagan wrote: I have to ask, don't you think that we are supporting them behind-the-scenes in some way? I think we have to have some CIA guys working with them at the moment. One reason we don't want to do so openly is because that will piss off Russia, and they might increase their support of the Syrian governmnet in response thus escalating the conflict..
A news item I read a couple of days ago had a rebel cvommander asking 'doesn't America know what's going on over here?? Don't they have satillites??' (unfortunately I can't find it right now)
It doesn't sound like we're giving them any help at all. I don't doubt we have some "spooks" in Turkey looking at the situation over the fence. I'm sure we are hearing from the rebels themselves, and Mossad has plenty of input. Other than that, you are doing a whole lot of speculating about US direct aid.
Here's a wider view of the situation in the rebel's and the Mid East's eyes.. It's all a convoluted mess..


Arms supplies to Syrian rebels dry up amid rivalries and divisions
In Aleppo there is still no sign of the heavy weapons for which the rebels have pleaded and ammunition is running low
Martin Chulov and Ian Black
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 10 October 2012 12.23 EDT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oc ... -rivalries

Now, it seems, the supply is drying up. On Aleppo's frontlines, there is still no sign of the heavy weapons for which the rebels have pleaded. Ammunition is running low. "They are giving us enough to keep this fight going, but not enough to win it," complained Abu Furat, a commander. "I'm sure that's not going to change until after the American elections. I'm not sure everyone can survive until then."

Dissatisfaction with Sakr's role goes further. The US, always jittery about backing the uprising, is opposed to calls by Saudi Arabia and Qatar to supply rebel groups with equipment needed to combat aircraft and tanks – an issue raised by Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney on Monday. Jordan and Turkey appear to share Washington's concerns. Confirmation on Wednesday that the US had sent a military mission to Jordan to help build a headquarters on the border with Syria and to improve Jordan's military capabilities underlines worries about possible spillover.

"It's about indirect intervention," said Mustafa Alani of the Saudi-financed Gulf Research Centre in Abu Dhabi. "The money is there, arms can be supplied. But the Jordanians and the Turks are hesitant. Turkey is allowing some weapons in but there are a lot of restrictions. People are waiting for a shift after the US election."

Another growing problem is a lack of co-ordination between Qatar and the Saudis – the likely subject of Wednesday's talks in Doha between the Emir and the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar. King Abdullah is said to be growing impatient with the difficulties of the Syrian crisis. According to Syrian opposition activists, the Saudis now sponsor only rebel groups which are at odds with those backed by Qatar and Turkey, which are often linked to the Muslim Brotherhood.

"The Qataris are much more proactive than the Saudis," said one well-placed Arab source. "The Saudis are not interested in democracy, they just want to be rid of Bashar. They would be happy with a Yemeni solution that gets rid of the president and leaves the regime intact."

Intelligence chiefs from Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and France reportedly met in Turkey in early September along with the CIA director general, David Petraeus. But they apparently failed to reach agreement on a co-ordinated strategy.

US officials say the opaque nature of the opposition and the creeping presence of foreign jihadis are behind their pressure on Riyadh and Doha. "They have both been given a yellow light by the Americans," said a Lebanese minister aligned to the Future movement. "The Saudis see yellow as yellow, but the Qataris have seen it as green. Their connections with and supply to the opposition have continued, perhaps escalated. The Americans are especially against handing out anti-aircraft missiles. They will not accept these things falling into the hands of jihadis. Imagine having to do a Stinger buy-back programme like Afghanistan all over again."

Now the Saudis are signalling that they are reaching the limits of what they will do in the face of US objections, concern about the resilience of the Assad regime, fears that extremists will dominate the opposition – as well as the risks of "blowback" from jihadis returning home.

The initial armed support for the rebels resulted in two substantial shipments of automatic weapons, ammunition and rocket-propelled grenades, delivered in May and June from Turkey. Since then, large-scale gun-running has dried up.

"The Saudis were the most enthusiastic by far about getting weapons to the rebels," said a former Lebanese MP. "They were public about it and committed. That was until July." By the middle of that month, foreign jihadis started trickling into Syria looking to join the fray.

The rebel military council, a group of defected senior officers, is opposed to the foreigners and wary of Syria's own Islamist groups, who have been organising and arming in the rural areas between Aleppo and Idlib.

Riyadh worries too about its home front, where the Syrian issue is kept alive by the likes of Sheikh Adnan Arour, a rabidly sectarian Salafi televangelist. Official media continue to bombard the public with images of atrocities carried out by Alawites – Assad's ruling sect. But non-establishment clerics who wanted to launch a fundraising drive to aid Syria were ordered to hold off. An official campaign raised more than $100m in a few days.

"The Saudis fear that there will be blowback from Syria like there was from Iraq and Afghanistan," said Alani. "They don't want chaos. They want the Syrian military to take over. The whole region wants that, including the Israelis. Everyone wants an organised structure of army officers who will keep weapons under control and make sure that they are handed in."

Now the Saudis are pushing the armed Syrian opposition to form a "salvation front" with unified command and control on the ground and, crucially, an ability to collect weapons once fighting has ended – a lesson learned the hard way from Libya. The Saudis are backing brigadier-general Manaf Tlass, the most senior defector yet from the military – from a key Sunni family – as part of a drive to win over other figures from the Syrian army and security establishment. "It's no good calling for them to be held accountable for crimes," warned Alani. "They need to be told they will get support." Next week the Qataris are hosting a conference to try to unite a host of squabbling opposition groups.

But there is little optimism about prospects for any immediate improvement. "It's all a bit of a mess," said analyst Shadi Hamid of the Brookings Institution in Doha. "Everyone is waiting for someone else to do a better job. It can't be the Saudis or the Qataris or the Turks. It's got to be the Americans. If we are looking at Gulf support it's certainly been a big story, but that's not the reality. There's a big gap between what people think the Gulf countries have been doing and what they are actually doing. Not that many weapons have been delivered."
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote: Exactly what we should be doing to help the Syrian population. Some real time satillite imaging and tactiacal advice would help a lot too. Anything but our boots on the ground. Dealing with the middle East is kinda like the cops dealing with a domestic disturbance. Very carefully, fully knowing that they both will probably turn on them at any time.
Without our input the only help they are getting is from the terrorists. Guess who will be their new best friends when this is over.
Back in the '50s, General Ho Chi Minh came knocking on the Oval Office door asking for help to get the French out of his country. Eisenhower threw him out. You know how that turned out.
We could help and an Islamic state could prevail anyway.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote:Exactly what we should be doing to help the Syrian population. Some real time satillite imaging and tactiacal advice would help a lot too. Anything but our boots on the ground. Dealing with the middle East is kinda like the cops dealing with a domestic disturbance. Very carefully, fully knowing that they both will probably turn on them at any time.
When asked for specifics you couldn't be any more vague. The rebels/opposition are not an organized armed force, they're a ragtag band of civilians in a sovereign country. How do you propose sharing satellite imaging/tactical information/arms with that? Airlifting it in so we can get our planes and pilots shot down? Sailing up to the coast and tossing it onto the beach? Send them an email?
Troglodyte wrote:Without our input the only help they are getting is from the terrorists. Guess who will be their new best friends when this is over.
Congratulations, you just directly contradicted what you said in the first quote- ("...fully knowing that they both will probably turn on them at any time").
Troglodyte wrote:Back in the '50s, General Ho Chi Minh came knocking on the Oval Office door asking for help to get the French out of his country. Eisenhower threw him out. You know how that turned out.
Maybe you can tell us, since the situation you describe never happened.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Omar Bongo wrote: When asked for specifics you couldn't be any more vague. The rebels/opposition are not an organized armed force, they're a ragtag band of civilians in a sovereign country. How do you propose sharing satellite imaging/tactical information/arms with that? Airlifting it in so we can get our planes and pilots shot down? Sailing up to the coast and tossing it onto the beach? Send them an email?


Congratulations, you just directly contradicted what you said in the first quote- ("...fully knowing that they both will probably turn on them at any time").


Maybe you can tell us, since the situation you describe never happened.
Guess you didn't hear that the rebels have some defected Syrian military commanders organizing and running the opposition forces from their base in Turkey. No need to fly our info in or throw it on the beach. :wink:
We could "share" real time satillite imaging, and other intel, help supply humanitarian aid to the refugee camps, at least demand that a no fly zone be established and 'help' our NATO ally Turkey enforce it. We could at least give moral support and encouragement to the rebels, something this administration has yet to9 do.
Sure, I said we should not get between the two forces, boots on the ground. That would be inviting trouble.
Maybe Ike didn't physically throw ho out of the Oval Office, but he did refuse to meet with him. Ho turned to the Chinese for help getting the French out of "French IndoChina". The result was us getting into that mess. JFK sent us in as advisors and wanted to pull us out just before he got shot. LBJ 'devised" the Gulf of Tonkin incident to keep us there.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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kramer wrote:
No No NO, we should NOT be over their nation-rebuilding. ](*,) And especially when it looks as if we are working with Socialist International and the UN. Those new governments are almost certainly going to be governments that Socialist International (and the UN) approve of.

If they want to live their backwards lifestyle, so what?... Let them live that way.
Troglodyte wrote: Whose nation building, or rebuilding< Kramer??
We are along with Socialist International. And from what I see, we aren't just sitting on the sidelines waiting for some random crap to hit the fan, we are supporting and backing the uprisings.


Troglodyte wrote: The Syrian citizens were taking on Syria's military wit5h a few hunting rifles and third hand AK-47s. They knew little about tactics until some of Assaad's soldiers deserted and joined the rebels.
And most likely those citizens and rebels are operatives backed by Socialist International or members of this organization.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote: Who came to their aid?? Al Quada, Iran, jihadists, all backed by Russia and China. The people wante frreedom from a tyrant. It looks like they are gonna trade Assaad for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Are you ok with the Muslim Brotherhood? Did you know that somebody from Egypt with the same name as the President of Egypt attended a Socialist International meeting? And did you know that there is somebody in the State Department that is somehow related to the president of Egypt?
Troglodyte wrote: The only light at the ennd of the tunnel is what's happening in Libya right now, where the locals ghot fed u8p with the militias and jihadists, and are trying to run them out of the country.
Locals my ass. They were most likely operatives of (or had ties to) Socialist International and who were working with us BEFORE they got fed up and did something.

We're nation rebuilding over and we appear to be working with Socialist International.

You may be ok with socialism but I'm not because communists like socialism.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote:Guess you didn't hear that the rebels have some defected Syrian military commanders organizing and running the opposition forces from their base in Turkey. No need to fly our info in or throw it on the beach. :wink:
Guess you didn't hear that the defectors are in Turkey and the civilians with guns mounted on their pickups are in Syria. How do they organize and direct operations by phone from hundreds of miles away?
Troglodyte wrote:We could "share" real time satillite imaging, and other intel, help supply humanitarian aid to the refugee camps.
How do you know we're not doing this already but not advertising it? Do you at least admit the possibility that there may be things like this being carried out covertly so as to not further inflame tensions in the area?
Troglodyte wrote:at least demand that a no fly zone be established and 'help' our NATO ally Turkey enforce it.
Who should we "demand" this of? Why should Turkey risk further escalation to war with Syria...because we "demand" it?
Troglodyte wrote:We could at least give moral support and encouragement to the rebels, something this administration has yet to9 do..
No, that's exactly what they have been doing, you're "demanding" indirect military intervention.
Troglodyte wrote:Maybe Ike didn't physically throw ho out of the Oval Office, but he did refuse to meet with him.
Actually, Ho did not go to the White House to meet with Eisenhower, you made the entire story up.
Troglodyte wrote:Ho turned to the Chinese for help getting the French out of "French IndoChina"..
You're still confused...Ho Chi Minh was receiving help from Mao years before Eisenhower took office. And your suggestion that we should have supported a Communist rebel fighting against our democratic ally France in the "Red Scare" Era is more than a bit ridiculous, isn't it?
Troglodyte wrote:The result was us getting into that mess.
So the result of us not getting into that mess was us getting into that mess...got it. :-k
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Omar Bongo wrote: How do you know we're not doing this already but not advertising it? Do you at least admit the possibility that there may be things like this being carried out covertly so as to not further inflame tensions in the area?
Kinda har5d to believe that Obama has shown any6 interest in the Syrian situation aqt all.
He skipped out on the chance at the UN to talk directly to the representitives of those nations to attend a fund raiser. Certainly shows those nations and us citizens where his priorities are.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Omar Bongo wrote:
You're still confused...Ho Chi Minh was receiving help from Mao years before Eisenhower took office. And your suggestion that we should have supported a Communist rebel fighting against our democratic ally France in the "Red Scare" Era is more than a bit ridiculous, isn't it?


So the result of us not getting into that mess was us getting into that mess...got it. :-k
Ho Che Minh took on and beat the French Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu in 1953. Five years later he was still trying to dislodge them from the rest of Viet Nam. That's when the Cinese got seriously involved. I was there in 1960 and '61 as part of the advisory and intel units sent by JFK. Our choppers flew air rescue and support for the "beanies" and played taxicab for the spooks. my last missions were to start disengaging our advisory groups and give it up as an impossible job. After JFK was shot I was sent in again to pave the way for thge massive increase of support ordered by LBJ, after the Gulf of Tonkin incident.. Elsworth didn't tell me anything I didn't already know with his "Pentagon Papers.... :wink: .. A major FUBAR..
There's always a vast difference between the "official record" and what actually happened.
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Re: More trouble in Syria..

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Troglodyte wrote: Ho Che Minh took on and beat the French Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu in 1953. Five years later he was still trying to dislodge them from the rest of Viet Nam. That's when the Cinese got seriously involved. I was there in 1960 and '61 as part of the advisory and intel units sent by JFK. Our choppers flew air rescue and support for the "beanies" and played taxicab for the spooks. my last missions were to start disengaging our advisory groups and give it up as an impossible job. After JFK was shot I was sent in again to pave the way for thge massive increase of support ordered by LBJ, after the Gulf of Tonkin incident.. Elsworth didn't tell me anything I didn't already know with his "Pentagon Papers.... :wink: .. A major FUBAR..
There's always a vast difference between the "official record" and what actually happened.
Make that between what really happened and what you say happened. Check for yourself...many things you state above are incorrect. You couldn't even get the date of the battle of Dien Bien Phu right, it was in 1954...according to history books "the Battle of Dien Bien Phu marked the end of French involvement in Indochina"...the Chinese started supplying arms to the Viet Minh in 1949. You should write your own history book - "Trog's Real History of the Indochina Conflict".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
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