U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Vilepagan wrote: Let me be clear about my "agreement" with what trump did. I want the troops to come home, because generally war is a bad thing and we don't want to be seen as "occupiers". There may be good reasons to keep the troops there a while longer and those kinds of decisions are best left to those who know what the situation is on the ground locally.
There always are good reasons. But as in any organization, the subordinates don't always have the scope, nor the ultimate accountability the leader at the top does. For us to have a legitimate discussion, shouldn't we have those reasons in front of us before passing judgement one way or another?
Vilepagan wrote: On the contrary, his financial blunders and past history of dubious deals, scams, and outright fraud serve as evidence of his bad decision making.
That wasn't the point you were making. It was there was no evidence of any good decisions. This is the same paradigm you could also use to make the argument that Bill Belichick is a bad coach by putting forth all his blunders. If you are unwilling to acknowledge his financial success, I'm not optimistic we'll find much of a foundation to have any discussion regarding him. Neither of us particularly like the guy, but I'm not willing to keep re-hashing his character flaws as a primary topic. If and when I have that need, I'll head over to the 194 page OMB or similarly titled threads.
Vilepagan wrote: So your argument is that you have no opinion on trump but I'm intellectually lazy for having one. Perhaps I can be forgiven for thinking that I'm not the lazy one here. It would indeed be easy to dismiss out-of-hand any of trump's statements without objectively evaluating WHAT was being said, but since we're having this conversation I'm sure you don't think that's what I do.
There's a big difference between ambivalence (mixed emotions), and no opinion. I stand by it being lazy to not objectively evaluate an issue simply because of the person who made the decision - pro or con. Your argument that because of his bad decisions, he's pretty much incapable of making a good decision is one I completely disagree with. While we can agree to disagree about it being biased and intellectually lazy, there's not much disagreement that it pretty much ends the discussion when the other party has to overcome the hurdle of having to first prove competence of the decision maker.
Vilepagan wrote: Alas, I fear the problem is that we're talking about trump, a man whose character (or lack thereof) seems to be the driving force in his presidency.
And Obama before him, and Bush before him, and whoever is next.
User avatar
Vilepagan
Posts: 13485
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:07 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Vilepagan »

Bick wrote: And Obama before him, and Bush before him, and whoever is next.
Except I don't think trump is like any of them.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

John Q. Public wrote: Those of us who had skin in the game give Nixon full credit for that. The difference being that Nixon made his intentions known a full two years before we left and had a plan for the drawdown before we did. Donald did nothing that even resembles that.
You think the fact there were over a half million troops in Vietnam at the time had something to do with that?

We're talking about a single brigade level force of 2,000 in Syria, and they didn't just all up and leave last week. They're still there, and just started planning the transition to Turkey taking over the point. And while this planning is taking place, I think you'd agree the logistics of moving a brigade level force across land into a base in Iraq would be considerably less than a half million soldiers across an ocean.
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Vilepagan wrote: Except I don't think trump is like any of them.
You're right.

Orange Man
Black Man
White Man

All liars, all incompetent.

How's the weather back east? It's a little chilly over here.
User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 27490
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by John Q. Public »

So, shooting first and aiming later is normal when it's only a brigade? I see.
Bick wrote: They're still there, and just started planning the transition to Turkey taking over the point.
And Saudi Arabia. And Russia. And Iran. Interesting "coalition."
Don't look at me, I just work here.
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

John Q. Public wrote: So, shooting first and aiming later is normal when it's only a brigade? I see.
No comprende. Please splain.
John Q. Public wrote: And Saudi Arabia. And Russia. And Iran. Interesting "coalition."
I think you mean Syria, Russia and Iran. They've been allied for some time now. Is there a point to your comment?
User avatar
Fordama
Posts: 18288
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:12 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Fordama »

Bick wrote:
Despite what we read, we aren't privy to what's really going on behind what's being reported, and yet so many take very strong opinions regardless.
That's because we can watch FOX & Friends and watch the President's decision making processes.

Earlier this month, before Trump's tweetplomacy, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs stated that there still wasn't enough trained personnel to maintain stability in Syria. Now Trump is removing the trainers.

So at this point we know that Trump either did not consult and/or ignored the counsel of the Secretary of Defense, his own National Security Advisor, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in making this decision.

We know that he didn't go with the advice of Senate Republicans or the world's most important nation (according to the religious right) Israel.

Who's left in the process? Trump and...Ivanka? Jared? Omarosa is gone, so we can't credit/blame her. Who helped Trump make this decision that seems to favor Vladimir Putin?
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.—-JFK
User avatar
18echo
Oversight Committee
Posts: 4246
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:29 am

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by 18echo »

Trump meets with Erdogan and decides the time is right to withdraw from Syria.

While the remains of ISIS/Daesh have been relegated to the tri-border region and poses little threat within Syria, I am willing to bet that the discussion was more about continued US basing and overflight rights in Turkey than it was about ISIS in Syria or anywhere else.

One thing Trump has in common with every president going back to Ike, sometimes you have to make the decision based on keeping Incirlik Air Base open for business.

It's happened enough times just since 1991 that it should be painfully obvious by now.
"Hoc spatium adsuesco assuesco pro profunda rhetoricam."
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Fordama wrote: Earlier this month, ... the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs stated that there still wasn't enough trained personnel to maintain stability in Syria. Now Trump is removing the trainers.

So at this point we know that Trump either did not consult and/or ignored the counsel of the Secretary of Defense, his own National Security Advisor, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in making this decision.
Yes. Clearly he wanted the brigade out of Syria before it turned into yet another military quagmire. Not surprisingly, the military personnel wanted us to remain there / increase presence, as they have in every other quagmire going back to Vietnam.

In March & April, while the military guys were pushing for an increased presence in Syria, he pushed back saying we're getting out of Syria as he campaigned on and reiterated after the election. He acquiesced to increasing the presence after he was inaugurated, and finally said the hell with this...we're getting out of Dodge.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 87accc578c

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/politics ... index.html

You, Vile, JQP all portray this as some snap decision. And no Ford - not Fox, but your very own CNN and Wapo.
User avatar
John Q. Public
Site Admin
Posts: 27490
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by John Q. Public »

He might have campaigned on it but it was obviously a snap decision. Otherwise his Secretary of Defense and his military leaders would have known about it and had a plan in place. Instead, they found out on Twitter, just like the rest of the world and had to scramble to come up with a plan of some sort.

Re: Saudi Arabia's involvement,

"The Kingdom is a major contributor to the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS, flying the second highest number of sorties against ISIS in Syria, as well as, donating millions of dollars for relief efforts there."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/26/saudi-a ... syria.html
Don't look at me, I just work here.
broman
Posts: 4724
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:52 am
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by broman »

Bick wrote: He acquiesced to increasing the presence after he was inaugurated, and finally said the hell with this...we're getting out of Dodge.
OK, but is it a smart move based on conditions on the ground?
User avatar
Vilepagan
Posts: 13485
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:07 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Vilepagan »

Bick wrote: You, Vile, JQP all portray this as some snap decision.
Because it was.

Again, Bick; I have no problem with the troops coming home, what I have a problem with is trump's decision making. If this was planned why didn't he sit down with his advisers and say "this is what I'm going to do, so get behind it"...he didn't do that , he just announced it to them when he announced it to us.

You can't seriously be defending this as good leadership.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

broman wrote: OK, but is it a smart move based on conditions on the ground?
I've got no insight to this beyond the reaction of the military advisers' opposition to it. My sense of it is they believe the job was not completed, and Trump is saying we're close enough.

Trouble with our evaluation as lay persons is we aren't read in to the mission objectives, and aren't privy to the actual situation reports on the ground.

As to whether or not it's a smart move, I'll defer to Gust Avrakotos

User avatar
Zebra
Posts: 1005
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:48 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Zebra »

18echo wrote:Trump meets with Erdogan and decides the time is right to withdraw from Syria.

While the remains of ISIS/Daesh have been relegated to the tri-border region and poses little threat within Syria, I am willing to bet that the discussion was more about continued US basing and overflight rights in Turkey than it was about ISIS in Syria or anywhere else.

One thing Trump has in common with every president going back to Ike, sometimes you have to make the decision based on keeping Incirlik Air Base open for business.

It's happened enough times just since 1991 that it should be painfully obvious by now.


I knew it as a kid based at Cigli when my Dad served in the 60's and Incerlik when I was in during the 70's and 80's.
Attachments
hes-right-you-know-32476920.png
hes-right-you-know-32476920.png (108.13 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Coach, you can call me a S.O.B. all you want. Just don't call me a little S.O.B. [-X
MDDad
Posts: 12383
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:24 pm
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by MDDad »

18echo wrote:One thing Trump has in common with every president going back to Ike, sometimes you have to make the decision based on keeping Incirlik Air Base open for business.
18echo, if you're going to post so rarely, please try to avoid rational, common sense stuff like this. It screws up the otherwise inane dialogue here. The fact remains that every Trump decision is bad or stupid, and you're just going to have to get on board with that.
User avatar
Omar Bongo
Posts: 10537
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:59 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Omar Bongo »

And be sure to ignore all the inane, senseless, embarrassing, petty, counterproductive, immature things he does multiple times every day and instead focus on criticizing those who point them out
"Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic."
George Will

"How stupid is our country?"
Donald Trump
MDDad
Posts: 12383
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:24 pm
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by MDDad »

You're right, Omar. Five or six guys sitting on this board 24/7 and criticizing all the inane, senseless, embarrassing, petty, immature things he does multiple times every day isn't counterproductive at all. It's a wise use of one's time.
User avatar
Vilepagan
Posts: 13485
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:07 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Vilepagan »

MDDad wrote: It's a wise use of one's time.
Wiser than what you're doing. You're not criticizing the president when he does something appalling, you're whining about the people who do. Where's the wisdom in that?
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada
Bick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Vilepagan wrote: Because it was.

Again, Bick; I have no problem with the troops coming home, what I have a problem with is trump's decision making. If this was planned why didn't he sit down with his advisers and say "this is what I'm going to do, so get behind it"...he didn't do that , he just announced it to them when he announced it to us.

You can't seriously be defending this as good leadership.
We're in agreement that we're not debating whether or not our troops should get out of Syria. That would actually be a good discussion though. Might seem as though I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but my ambivalence is a result of not having a real grasp on the reasons for staying there. Clearly Gen Mattis feels pretty strongly about it.

We must have very different definitions of what constitutes a snap decision. If you told me you were going to do something 2 years ago, reiterated it 9 months ago, and then again 8 months ago, I don't see how I could argue that you made a sudden or surprise decision. Given the timing of the resignation letter, Trump may very well have told him this is what we're doing, so get behind it. Mattis pretty much told him to go pound sand.

As I mentioned earlier, this may have been more a function of a bad hire to begin with. Regardless, Mattis resigning is Trump's fault IMO, and an indictment of his inexperience in public governance. That inexperience was the primary reason I didn't think he was qualified to become POTUS in the first place, and didn't vote for him.

Now...as for Trump's leadership style, there's an awful lot I don't agree with. I've seen it before from other east coast / NY business guys. It's a brash, in your face, tough beans if you don't like it approach that doesn't play well AT ALL on the west coast. I've learned to be able to work with it, and in some cases actually appreciate it more than some of the west coast guys who've become good at telling you what you want to hear.
User avatar
Vilepagan
Posts: 13485
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:07 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Vilepagan »

18echo wrote: One thing Trump has in common with every president going back to Ike, sometimes you have to make the decision based on keeping Incirlik Air Base open for business.

It's happened enough times just since 1991 that it should be painfully obvious by now.
You may be right Echo, but I have to wonder why trump hasn't mentioned Incirlik when he's been criticized publicly for his decision...as you point out it's not a secret or anything.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada
Post Reply