U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Credo ut intelligam
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Credo ut intelligam »

John Q. Public wrote: “Mattis is the last brake on a president that makes major life-and-death decisions by whim without reading, deliberation, or any thought as to consequences and risks,” said a senior U.S. national-security official on Thursday, who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to talk freely. “The saving grace is that this president has not been tested by a major national-security crisis. But it will come, and when it does, we are ****ed.”
Spoke on the condition of anonymity. Coward.

When America was tested by a major national security crisis after 9/11, experts like this guy gave us Afghanistan (17 years going on now), the debacle of Iraq, and the bombing of Libya.

Sounds like the Military-Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about is upset. Here's a sample of some of their brilliant work in Syria.

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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Credo ut intelligam »

The New York Times develops whiplash on Syria. Oh, I forgot......Orange Man Bad.

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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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Credo ut intelligam wrote: Yeah, it's pretty easy to reach this conclusion when your entire political worldview is seen through the lens of Orange Man Bad.
It helps that the Orange Man Bad has made numerous bad decisions. I have no problem with getting out of Syria were it not for us screwing over the Kurds.....again. They are now threatening to release thousands of ISIS terrorists.

Is that good or bad.
Credo ut intelligam wrote: invoking Mattis as the Voice of Reason as a way of bashing Trump is little bit disingenuous.
Not when you compare him to others in the administration. Context is key.

When Trump selected his cabinet, I consoled myself with the notion that then-Secretary of Homeland Security John Kelly, and Mattis would be the grown-ups in the room, and would rein in the President's worst impulses. That duo is now going (Mattis), and gone (Kelly), and the Donald has reverted to his instinctive tendency to surround himself with Yes-men. When Yes-men are just giving advice about where to build new condos, they can't do all that much harm. When they are offering their not-too-considered opinions on national defense, thousands of lives (or more) could be in the balance. Not a good scenario.

Nature abhors a vacuum. We'll see who fills it.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Fordama »

The reaction in the Israeli press has been quite negative. Of course in their eyes every pair of American boots on the ground in that region is a positive.

Credo ut intelligam wrote: experts like this guy gave us Afghanistan (17 years going on now), the debacle of Iraq, and the bombing of Libya
He was a frikkin' Colonel then.

Idiotic Trump supporters--every day they say something even more stupid.
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.—-JFK
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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Learn to read, Fordama. He did not say "this guy." He said "...experts like this guy..."
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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That doesn't help Credo.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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Professor Fate wrote:Learn to read, Fordama. He did not say "this guy." He said "...experts like this guy..."
No, I read it. It was stupid. No doubt.

Colonels didn't decide to go into Afghanistan--a Republican President did, and he was probably right to do so. The statement was multiple layers of stupid.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Fordama »

And as far as Iraq goes, that was a poltical decision that was wildy popular with people of Cui's ilk. It wasn't that popular with the military. You know, people "like this guy."

“I think people were pretty much aware that the US military didn’t think it was a very wise idea,” he said in 2015, before being named Defense Secretary. “But we give a cheery ‘Aye aye, Sir.’ Because when you elect someone commander in chief — we give our advice. We generally give it in private.”

Mattis, like many other generals before the war, offered his advice to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the problems of going into Iraq. This frank advice is expected of high-ranking military officers, but ultimately it’s up to the civilian leadership to make the decision.


https://taskandpurpose.com/mattis-resig ... UNrSoWWlcg
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Wabash »

Fordama wrote: And as far as Iraq goes, that was a poltical decision that was wildy popular with people of Cui's ilk.
Especially if there was no danger of them being called to actually serve and go to Iraq.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Credo ut intelligam »

Professor Fate wrote: Learn to read, Fordama. He did not say "this guy." He said "...experts like this guy..."
Thank you, Professor, for pointing out the way some here continue to act in bad faith--or just plain error--in their compulsive need to justify their disdain for the President and anyone who might support him. I stated in an earlier post on this thread that there is a legitimate debate about whether withdrawing these troops from Syria is wise or not. Many on the conservative side, indeed, are dismayed by Trump's decision and think it will come back to haunt us. While I generally support the move, it is a complex situation, but my major contention is that--like all things Trump--the knee-jerk reaction that this must be a stupid decision simply because Trump made it is pretty shallow and hypocritical. My original post that spurred Fordama's intemperate, yet typical, reaction was made in response to the following post:
John Q. Public wrote: “Mattis is the last brake on a president that makes major life-and-death decisions by whim without reading, deliberation, or any thought as to consequences and risks,” said a senior U.S. national-security official on Thursday, who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to talk freely. “The saving grace is that this president has not been tested by a major national-security crisis. But it will come, and when it does, we are ****ed.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... on/569746/
What we have here is a cherry-picked quote from an anonymous source that places the President in the worst possible light. We have no idea who this person is, or if the quote is even accurate. It is essentially worthless and I called it out for what it is--cowardly. If this "senior U.S. national-security official" is that opposed to his boss, he should do the honorable thing and resign--publicly and by name. My response to this quote was thus....
Credo ut intelligam wrote: When America was tested by a major national security crisis after 9/11, experts like this guy gave us Afghanistan (17 years going on now), the debacle of Iraq, and the bombing of Libya.
I also quoted an L.A. Times article which showed some of the FUBAR actions of our engagement in Syrian. My post invited the following....
Fordama wrote: He was a frikkin' Colonel then.
Idiotic Trump supporters--every day they say something even more stupid.
I went back and read the original Atlantic article. Nowhere else is this anonymous "national-security official" quoted or mentioned. How in the world does Fordama assert that he was a "Colonel" back in 2001 (Afghanistan) or 2003 (Iraq)? The guy could be a civilian for all we know. So not only does he misconstrue or deliberately mischaracterize my view, he just makes up something of of thin air to bash me, thinking he's scored some point. But I'm the "idiotic" one.
Fordama wrote: Colonels didn't decide to go into Afghanistan--a Republican President did, and he was probably right to do so. The statement was multiple layers of stupid.
There is the "Colonels" reference again (???). I'll say that taking out Bin Laden was necessary, but if someone wants to defend 17 years and $1 trillion in Afghanistan with little to show for it, be my guest.
Fordama wrote: And as far as Iraq goes, that was a political decision that was wildly popular with people of Cui's ilk. It wasn't that popular with the military. You know, people "like this guy."
Yes, ultimately decisions to go to war are made by the President and the Senate; the founders desired civilian control of the military. But who is this "Cui"--is it a typo for "Credo?" If it was, he should know that I opposed the war in Iraq from the get-go. People like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Robert Mueller, and their "ilk", who lent the credibility of their offices to push a false or mistaken narrative that spurred the invasion of Iraq (another $1.4 trillion) should have no credibility in the public eye.

Trump consistently campaigned on getting the U.S. out of these unnecessary foreign adventures. The Syria decision, as well as the decision to bring home half the troops in Afghanistan, is refreshing in the fact that a promise made on the campaign is actually being kept. Time will tell whether these were the right moves to make. As far as concern for the Kurds, it looks like Saudi Arabia and the UAE will be taking over some of the U.S. role in this respect:

[blockquote]Saudi Arabia, UAE send troops to support Kurds in Syria
Saudi Arabia and the UAE have sent military forces to areas controlled by the Kurdish YPG group in north-east Syria, Turkey’s Yenisafak newspaper reported.

The paper said the forces will be stationed with US-led coalition troops and will support its tasks with huge military enforcements as well as heavy and light weapons.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181 ... -in-syria/[/blockquote]
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by broman »

Credo ut intelligam wrote: but my major contention is that--like all things Trump--the knee-jerk reaction that this must be a stupid decision simply because Trump made it is pretty shallow and hypocritical
Based on the available information, there is nothing knee-jerk about the reaction Trump received from foreign policy experts and military leadership.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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Maybe "piling on" but true.

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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by broman »

Just look at Turkey's controversial offensive in Syria's northern region of Afrin, intended to extend Turkey's existing buffer zone inside the country and to evict Kurdish fighters from a broad swathe of territory.

The Ankara government sees the fighters as allies of Kurdish separatists inside Turkey. Indeed, despite various shifts in Turkish policy towards the conflict in Syria, opposition to Kurdish autonomy has been constant and absolute.

The Turks will simply not tolerate what they see as the threat posed by an autonomous Kurdish zone on their southern frontier. And they are clearly willing to use significant force to remove it.

The Kurdish fighters have long been trained and backed by the Americans, indeed, they have proved to be the most capable of Washington's allies in the struggle against Islamic State.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42818353

A senior White House official said [President of Turkey] Erdogan gave Trump his "word" that Turkey would finish off ISIS. "During a conversation I had with Mr. Trump — he said 'ISIS, can you clear ISIS from this area?'" Erdogan recalled. "We did it before, and we can again as long as we have logistic support from you."
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/23/politics ... index.html

If you kill a some Kurds along the way.... not a problem.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

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Credo ut intelligam wrote: The Syria decision, as well as the decision to bring home half the troops in Afghanistan, is refreshing in the fact that a promise made on the campaign is actually being kept.
While I share your view on the return of the troops I don't share your views about trump keeping a campaign promise.

What the hell took him so long? He's done nothing in two years and now suddenly, when the political heat is being turned up, he makes a snap decision to bring people home? Seems a bit too convenient for me.

In short I think trump did the right thing in the wrong way and for all the wrong reasons.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Vilepagan wrote: What the hell took him so long? He's done nothing in two years and now suddenly, when the political heat is being turned up, he makes a snap decision to bring people home? Seems a bit too convenient for me.

In short I think trump did the right thing in the wrong way and for all the wrong reasons.
What were YOUR expectations of him for fulfilling this promise timing-wise? Seems the political heat on him has been up since he was elected. Having a hard time understanding your points of "what took so long", and then characterizing the announcement as a snap decision.

A brigade level force in a hostile country can't be viewed as a long term deployment, and I'm not entirely sure what the real objective(s) of being there was in the first place, and / or how much of it is within our government's constitutional purview.

My take on this is we were there to provide cover for the humanitarian crisis, and put a huge dent in ISIS capabilities. I believe those 2 were handled - at least temporarily.

In Jan this year, it seems our plan expanded to include regime change / combating Iran's influence in the conflict with an indefinite military presence in the country. We followed that up with missile strikes on Syria airbases in April. Based on his recent resignation, I'm guessing this escalation was at the behest of Gen Mattis. I'm also assuming one of his concerns is that Syria would devolve in the same manner Iraq did when Obama pulled out of there in 2011. While I understand the General's position, I think it's a reach to deem it a direct threat to the US, and therefore not authorized by our constitution.

Timing of campaign promises aside, it would be great to discuss the pros and cons of our role in the middle east without the usual partisan sentiment. There are ample opportunities to express those sentiments in the threads named as such.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Vilepagan »

Bick wrote: What were YOUR expectations of him for fulfilling this promise timing-wise?
I had none.
Seems the political heat on him has been up since he was elected.
Seems to me that lately the heat has intensified, and it seems to me that trump feels it too.
Having a hard time understanding your points of "what took so long", and then characterizing the announcement as a snap decision.
I'm not sure how to explain it more simply...he hasn't said a word about bringing these people home for two years and now, against the advice of his advisers, he decides to announce they're coming home? Why now?
My take on this is we were there to provide cover for the humanitarian crisis, and put a huge dent in ISIS capabilities. I believe those 2 were handled - at least temporarily.
Ok.
In Jan this year, it seems... Based on his recent resignation, I'm guessing.... I'm also assuming...
I have no knowledge to confirm or rebut your speculations.
Timing of campaign promises aside, it would be great to discuss the pros and cons of our role in the middle east without the usual partisan sentiment. There are ample opportunities to express those sentiments in the threads named as such.
Well, my opinion is that "partisan sentiment" may very well be trump's only motive here, since there's no evidence he was advised to do this nor do I think he has given this issue even as much thought as you have. I don't think he has a plan or a strategy here other than to distract from his domestic political problems.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Bick »

Vilepagan wrote: my opinion is that "partisan sentiment" may very well be trump's only motive here
So much for that idea.

Is there some unwritten rule that all threads in the political forum morph into Orange Man Bad threads? Can you establish a separate OMB heading so as to keep all those needing a safe space to rant on the POTUS?

Probably need to establish a 3 Stripes Bad section on the High School side as well.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by John Q. Public »

The Secretary of Defense and the envoy to the coalition against ISIS quitting and his own advisers questioning what his motives might be gives me the feeling this one is never going to fall into the "Orange Man Good" category.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by Wabash »

Has he issued anything official to his commanders besides tweets?

If not, no one is going anywhere.
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Re: U.S. Troops Coming Home from Syria

Post by 18echo »

Yep.

Outgoing Defense Secretary Jim Mattis has signed an order requiring the reduction of U.S. military from Syria,
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 405418002/
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