Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

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Fordama
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Fordama » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:31 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:You guys keep conflating (disingenuously, I believe) the lawfully protected objection to a specific message with the unlawful discrimination against a person.
No, it's baking a cake. Real easy thing to do. They have a business license to sell cakes to the public.


This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Fordama
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Fordama » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:That's a fair question..

One in which you were really unable to answer. All you did was pose other questions whose answers you did not understand. It was a familiar response.

Then I remembered this quote from the movie Joe Dirt: "Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does."
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

Credo ut intelligam
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Credo ut intelligam » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:04 am

Fordama wrote:Source of the post One in which you were really unable to answer. All you did was pose other questions whose answers you did not understand. It was a familiar response.

Have some patience, friend. Actually, I posed some serious questions which people on both sides of these various issues should humbly consider. But if you can't imagine that there could be thoughtful disagreement and are just looking for a "gotcha" opportunity then your snarky response makes sense.

Obviously there's no proof-text from the Bible that prohibits making cakes for same-sex weddings; that's not how Christian morality works. It's not simply a mindless recitation of the Bible, which itself is not meant as an all-encompassing guide to every possible life dilemma. It provides the foundation. Just as there is no mention of abortion or same-sex marriage in the Constitution, principles from scripture and the natural law can be adduced to support the baker's unwillingness to lend support to what he believes to be immoral. He has stated numerous times that he is happy to and has made cakes and pastries for everyone--gay, straight, transgendered, whatever. It is the particular message that he objects to. Some people simply cannot tolerate that--thus the place where he finds himself.

You don't need to consult the Bible to know that men are men and women are women, and that marriage throughout all of human history and civilization has been between a man and woman. You want to call yourself something else, that's your business. It's a free country. And now it's legal to marry someone of the same sex. But I also have the freedom from being forced to accept and celebrate your rejection of the natural law and scripture, which ideas and choices violate fundamental Christian beliefs about the design of the creation and how we are called to live in loving communion with God. This is religious freedom. Live and let live runs both ways. And the Supreme Court seems to agree.

If you want some scripture that addresses Christian teaching and belief about the nature of marriage and the unchangeable reality of our creation as either male or female, then here are the foundational texts:

Genesis 1:27 - God created mankind in his image; in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:18-24 - The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him. So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name. The man gave names to all the tame animals, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be a helper suited to the man. So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. The LORD God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man, the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of man this one has been taken.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

Matthew 19:3-6 - Some Pharisees approached (Jesus), and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

I'd be happy to engage in a respectful discussion on this issue. Cherry-picked snark...not interested.

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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Credo ut intelligam » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 am

Fordama wrote:No, it's baking a cake. Real easy thing to do. They have a business license to sell cakes to the public.

But that license cannot force the business owner to create any cake that a potential customer demands.

The same-sex couple or the transgender person can go to another bakery. That's also an easy thing to do. There is no constitutional right to avoid being offended.

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Vilepagan
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Vilepagan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:Source of the post It is the particular message that he objects to.


And the message that he objected to on a pink and blue cake? See, you and he can claim it's the message but there doesn't seem to be an objectionable message on this particular cake.

You don't need to consult the Bible to know that men are men and women are women, and that marriage throughout all of human history and civilization has been between a man and woman.


That would be incorrect.

The following link contains information about the history of same sex unions so you don't make the spurious claim that marriage has always been between one man and one woman:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... sex_unions

And now it's legal to marry someone of the same sex.


Free at last, free at last, thank god almighty we're free at last.

But I also have the freedom from being forced to accept and celebrate your rejection of the natural law and scripture...


That would also be incorrect. You certainly have the right not to be forced to celebrate anything, but unfortunately you must accept the fact that gay people can marry, and that you may not discriminate against them, that's not a matter of choice. It's just the law, and we all have to accept it.
Last edited by John Q. Public on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Vilepagan
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Vilepagan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:13 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:Source of the post The same-sex couple or the transgender person can go to another bakery. That's also an easy thing to do. There is no constitutional right to avoid being offended.


Sure and the black people can go to another diner...your argument didn't work in the fifties, what makes you think it's gotten better with age?
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Fordama
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Fordama » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 am

Nothing like a good old recycled argument like "separate but equal."

History. I enjoy seeing people trying to repeat it. Sometimes repeating history would be a good thing. However, going back in time on civil rights isn't one of those times.
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby broman » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:54 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:Source of the post violate fundamental Christian beliefs


If this baker and other Christians are so convicted to not support abortion, gay marriage, and transgender rights it also needs to carried over to violations of other Christian beliefs. There is enough evidence to believe that the current occupant of the White House committed adultery and he continuous bears false witness. Trump has around 80/90% support from the people who find religious justification for not supporting gay rights.

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Omar Bongo
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Omar Bongo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Crickets
"Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic."
George Will

"How stupid is our country?"
Donald Trump

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Fordama
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby Fordama » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:35 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:But that license cannot force the business owner to create any cake that a potential customer demands.
.

Right. They just had to make a wedding cake--which was a part of their regular business.
This country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them.---JFK

RPW
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Re: Court Allows Christian Baker to Sue

Postby RPW » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am

Credo ut intelligam wrote:Source of the post Have some patience, friend. Actually, I posed some serious questions which people on both sides of these various issues should humbly consider. But if you can't imagine that there could be thoughtful disagreement and are just looking for a "gotcha" opportunity then your snarky response makes sense.

Obviously there's no proof-text from the Bible that prohibits making cakes for same-sex weddings; that's not how Christian morality works. It's not simply a mindless recitation of the Bible, which itself is not meant as an all-encompassing guide to every possible life dilemma. It provides the foundation. Just as there is no mention of abortion or same-sex marriage in the Constitution, principles from scripture and the natural law can be adduced to support the baker's unwillingness to lend support to what he believes to be immoral. He has stated numerous times that he is happy to and has made cakes and pastries for everyone--gay, straight, transgendered, whatever. It is the particular message that he objects to. Some people simply cannot tolerate that--thus the place where he finds himself.

You don't need to consult the Bible to know that men are men and women are women, and that marriage throughout all of human history and civilization has been between a man and woman. You want to call yourself something else, that's your business. It's a free country. And now it's legal to marry someone of the same sex. But I also have the freedom from being forced to accept and celebrate your rejection of the natural law and scripture, which ideas and choices violate fundamental Christian beliefs about the design of the creation and how we are called to live in loving communion with God. This is religious freedom. Live and let live runs both ways. And the Supreme Court seems to agree.

If you want some scripture that addresses Christian teaching and belief about the nature of marriage and the unchangeable reality of our creation as either male or female, then here are the foundational texts:

Genesis 1:27 - God created mankind in his image; in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:18-24 - The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him. So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name. The man gave names to all the tame animals, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be a helper suited to the man. So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. The LORD God then built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman. When he brought her to the man, the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of man this one has been taken.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

Matthew 19:3-6 - Some Pharisees approached (Jesus), and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

I'd be happy to engage in a respectful discussion on this issue. Cherry-picked snark...not interested.


Awful lot of those Christians also said the Bible told them to have slaves. Can you find that part in the Bible for me?
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