Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

not4u13
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Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby not4u13 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:36 am

It's sometimes hard to understand how Trump's approval rating is above 15%. Every time he talks, he lies and many times they are material. We could have a debate about which statements or lies; whether or not the lies are material; or even if they are actually lies. What's more important to understand is that even when everyone understands that he is lying, why some just don't care.

CNN's Chris Cuomo made an interesting point yesterday that I've been pondering for some time. A lot of folks don't care that Trump lies because they believe everyone is lying. All politicians lie. Nobody can be trusted. It's not about Trump (the player), it's about the game (politics). Focusing on Trump's lies, keeping track of the frequency and arguing about the depth and breadth does nothing to undermine the man.

When did we sink so low as a nation that the truth no longer matters? While it's clear that politicians have lied for decades (maybe centuries), how did we get to a place where integrity is no longer valued? Is it really more about the game than the players?


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Wabash
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:58 am

A good portion of his following doesn't really care about what he says. Their idea of making America great is returning to the days when white people (specifically white males) controlled everything. They believe they are the victims of minorities being able to access the American dream at the expense of white people. They don't really care about policies that would be beneficial. They want to see those other groups brought DOWN to their level.

To your point about everyone lies. The right wing has done a remarkable job of convincing their following that everyone lies. So that any investigation is a partisan effort and not really designed to put integrity back into the system.

It's why they can launch numerous investigations into Benghazi and have no results. Then claim faux outrage over the Cohen hearing being a waste of time.

Ironically this group also claims to embrace Christian values.

IMO.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

not4u13
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby not4u13 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:12 am

Wabash wrote:Source of the post To your point about everyone lies. The right wing has done a remarkable job of convincing their following that everyone lies. So that any investigation is a partisan effort and not really designed to put integrity back into the system.


This really is the point. It's a progression.
He didn't lie, but if he did lie, it was immaterial and if it was material, it's not a big deal because everyone does it. Also, it's not really a lie because it's all part of the negotiation.
Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountain is going home; that wildness is necessity; John Muir
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:14 am

Wabash wrote:Source of the post The right wing has done a remarkable job of convincing their following that everyone lies

Correction: That should say "the far right wing." The merely Conservative are as baffled by all this as everybody else is.

Oh. And good to see you, not4u!
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:58 am

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post Correction: That should say "the far right wing." The merely Conservative are as baffled by all this as everybody else is.

The merely Conservative enabled "the far right wing."
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby John Q. Public » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:25 am

Not really. True Conservatives have stuck to their guns since the first one was called a RINO.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:46 pm

When Obama was elected we saw the GOP establishment create, promote, and embrace the TEA Party movement.

Trump is the logical conclusion of that effort.

For them to try and absolves themselves of blame is akin to Dr. Frankenstein running into town screaming that a monster is loose.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:39 pm

not4u13 wrote:Source of the post All politicians lie. Nobody can be trusted. It's not about Trump (the player), it's about the game (politics). Focusing on Trump's lies, keeping track of the frequency and arguing about the depth and breadth does nothing to undermine the man.


The first step down the road that leads to where we are now is the idea that "all politicians lie' or that "both sides do it". Lies matter and it's important to remember what is being lied about and by whom. It's not about the game, it's about the players and the plays they make.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:35 pm

When I have had discussions with Trump supporters about their situational morality they inevitably respond with claims that Obama or Clinton were worse.

Defending Trump is not done.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:49 am

One last point. There is enough research that shows that one's level of education and support for Trump are inversely related.

There is a great article in today's WaPo detailing the level of vocabulary from Democratic candidates is at a much higher education level than GOP candidates.

On a certain level it is genius on Trump's part to exploit those intellectual shortcomings. While most Americans are horrified by a president acting like a third grader who is having a bad hair day, his base loves every minute of it. His style also makes it impossible for the Democrats to do what they like to do: Have a serious discussion about public policy. Trump just won't go there. It is all snide remarks and bullying and trolling the libs, but that is precisely what his base loves about him—and why other Republicans with the same policies don't do as well as he does.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:57 am

Salesmanship 101 says you never talk "above" your customer. That's a failure for the Democrats more than it's genius on Trump's part.

Your third paragraph equates having less education and a smaller vocabulary with being a goon. They aren't related.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:15 am

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post Salesmanship 101 says you never talk "above" your customer. That's a failure for the Democrats more than it's genius on Trump's part.


I have to completely disagree with you on this point JQP.

I don't want my elected officials to be salesmen, we have one of those in the Oval Office now and the results couldn't be more discouraging.

You shouldn't be looking at the behavior of elected officials as if they were trying to sell you something, you should think of them as employees or contractors hired to provide a specific service. The service required would determine how much intelligence and expertise you would reasonably expect from your employee. Needing a ditch dug wouldn't require the level of expertise necessary for brain surgery, but I suspect that governing is something we should undertake with a certain amount of intelligence.

The first thing I look for in a candidate for public office is a mind at work, and their words are the only way to know if they have a mind and if it's working.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby not4u13 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am

"I don't want my elected officials to be salesmen, we have one of those in the Oval Office now and the results couldn't be more discouraging. "

Well VP. Show me a contractor that isn't also a salesman and I'll show you a starving contractor.

We need smart and well educated people who also understand how to sell themselves to their very broad audience. What got Obama elected was his ability to really speak to a wide audience. Well spoken but in plain English. Bold and brash. Clear message (Change) that lots of people could identify with (even if they disagreed on what it meant).

Throughout History it's been those who can get people to believe in them ... sell themselves ... who have been the most effective at getting elected and become leaders. The more complicated the message, the more difficult it will be to reach the masses.

Lies should matter, but they don't. The more Trump's opposition focuses on the lies, the more his supports will say ... you just don't get it ... and laugh all the way to the polls. Getting Trump out of office is going to require a better salesman.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:45 am

not4u13 wrote:Source of the post We need smart and well educated people who also understand how to sell themselves to their very broad audience.


I agree, but as you noted by putting it last, salesmanship is the least important aspect of a good candidate.

not4u13 wrote:Source of the post Lies should matter, but they don't.


Of course they matter.

The more Trump's opposition focuses on the lies, the more his supports will say ... you just don't get it ... and laugh all the way to the polls.


Well not4U, not to put too fine a point on it but a lot of trump supporters are pretty stupid people. I really don't think we should worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator, nor do I think politicians should base their policies on what the dumbest among us want.
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:59 am

Jim Jeffries explained it reasonably well in a humorous way...this clip aired just before trump was elected...NSFW

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:33 pm

Obamacare was the prime example of Democrats not selling their program. They used the strategy of "We're smarter than you and we outnumber you. You'll like this, trust us." And they lost Congress and have faced countless law suits over it - with the full support of those voters - when "You want this, you want this, you want this and you want this. Well, what if we were to put them all together in one package and get you a discount on your payments? Would you like that?" would have worked so much better and it wouldn't have pissed off half of the country.

And now they're going to be campaigning on single-payer by preaching to the choir while the Medicaid, SNAP and SSI recipients in red states scream "socialism!" Really, it's a pretty easy sell if you take the time to teach people about it and sell it but they refuse to do it. FDR did it and got an almost unanimous electoral college win and then two more after that.

Well not4U, not to put too fine a point on it but a lot of trump supporters are pretty stupid people.

And a lot of Democrats are pretty naive people. Case in point - the Green New Deal, which is not only ungodly expensive in the time frame it sets but it hijacked (and poisoned) a term that would have come in real handy with trying to sell the candidates supporting single-payer.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:55 pm

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post Obamacare was the prime example of Democrats not selling their program.


Perhaps, but at some point you must give up trying to convince people to accept something they're intent on mis-understanding.

And a lot of Democrats are pretty naive people.


No doubt. I'm not selling the "Green New Deal" if you're wondering.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby John Q. Public » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:29 pm

Except they didn't even try to sell it to the unsold. Considering it's now popular 50% to 37% and Republican candidates had to claim they supported it in the midterms, it shouldn't have been that hard to do.

Their next challenge is trying to get ahead of the claims that they're going to turn us into Venezuela and I don''t see anyone trying to do it.
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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Wabash » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:01 pm

I believe many of the unsold hated any idea coming from Obama by virtue of his being black. They would have hated it if he had sold them money at half price.
They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

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Re: Why Trump's base doesn't care that he lies

Postby Vilepagan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:37 am

John Q. Public wrote:Source of the post Their next challenge is trying to get ahead of the claims that they're going to turn us into Venezuela and I don''t see anyone trying to do it.


Well, in their defense I'm not sure I'd know how to do it either except to ridicule such nonsensical claims.

At what point do you throw in the towel and just stop trying to nicely explain how we're not going to turn into Venezuela, why vaccines are good for you, and how Hillary wasn't actually running a pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor?

Is there a limit to the nonsense that you think the Democrats should address?
There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed. - The Dhammapada

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