Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Elroy El »

GOODave wrote: Given his record as Governor ... he was elected President.

...or were you not aware of that and I just ruined the surprise for you?
Hey numbnuts. This group didn't exist when he was Governor or President. Had they existed Reagan would have failed their "purity" test and never been elected to either one if they were influential in determining which candidates were actually supported by the party.

That's the point you're missing. Nothing new.
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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Elroy El wrote: Hey numbnuts. This group didn't exist when he was Governor or President. Had they existed Reagan would have failed their "purity" test and never been elected to either one if they were influential in determining which candidates were actually supported by the party.

That's the point you're missing. Nothing new.
ah ah ah ... lose the name calling! Paul doesn't like it.

This group didn't have to exist ... the GOP was already behaving that way. That's the point you're missing (well, that and the fact he was President for 8 years: You must have been busy building your "empire" at that time).
=D>
Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Elroy El »

GOODave wrote:ah ah ah ... lose the name calling! Paul doesn't like it.

This group didn't have to exist ... the GOP was already behaving that way. That's the point you're missing (well, that and the fact he was President for 8 years: You must have been busy building your "empire" at that time).
=D>
Who was behaving this way? Certainly not the GOP that worshipped him while he was President?

I'm thinking you're memory is shorter than your pecker.

Unless you're saying the GOP stood for deficit spending and tax hikes during his tenure as both goveror and president.

A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised.

Is that what you mean when you say the GOP was already behaving that way?
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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Elroy El wrote:Given his record as Governor of CA, Reagan would fail number one and number nine as well. He not only signed on to one of the largest tax increases (by percentage) in the history of the state and a very liberal abortion bill.

As President he expanded government utilizing unheard of deficits.
You still don't get it.

His record as president superceded his record as a Governor. It is his record as president that is remembered by everyone except those looking to disparage his memory.

A higher debt is but a very small piece of an overall and otherwise conservative economic perspective Reagan clearly possessed. His intent in raising the debt was to return the money to those who spent it: Us. And like it or not, you cannot argue with his results. Remembering that he took over a seriously dysfunctional economy from a seriously dysfunctional liberal president that preceded him.

Yes, he bought a bill of goods about illegal immigrants. He made a bad choice on that front. No question. But no rational person can say he would have failed: It is upon his memory that most of those were crafted (and NOT the memory of his Governorship).

I'll bet you a nickel that most Americans don't even realize he was California's governor before he was president. Heck, I'll bet few Americans even realize he started out as an Actor...
Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Elroy El »

GOODave wrote:You still don't get it.

His record as president superceded his record as a Governor. It is his record as president that is remembered by everyone except those looking to disparage his memory.
Whose disparaging his memory? I'm certainly not. I voted for him twice. I'm only pointing out that he would not pass muster of the group demanding a purity test for candidates.

You're the one that has completely missed that point.....again.
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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Elroy El wrote: Whose disparaging his memory? I'm certainly not. I voted for him twice. I'm only pointing out that he would not pass muster of the group demanding a purity test for candidates.
You're pointing out a vapor ... a f&rt in the wind... It's a specter: Nobody sees it but you because It doesn't exist in reality (as I ably showed you in this morning's post).

"Who's disparaging his memory?" You are ... at least you're trying to.
Elroy El wrote:I'm thinking you're memory is shorter than your pecker.
BTW, while I'm charmed at your sudden affinity for my anatomy, I should probably remind you again that I am happily and productively married and there is absolutely no chance you'll ever have my number on your speed dial. You simply MUST get over me and my, er, obvious attribute.
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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kramer wrote:
Here are the 10 tests:

source

I only see Reagan failing item 5.
He'd fail #1, 4, 5, 6 (sort of, he wouldn't have poured American lives into the rathole of Iraq,) 7, and 8.

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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Fordama wrote:He'd fail #1, 4, 5, 6 (sort of, he wouldn't have poured American lives into the rathole of Iraq,) 7, and 8.

Fordama
  • (1) Smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama’s “stimulus” bill: Reagan actually did support smaller government: Although he obviously did raise the debt, that alone is insufficient to disqualify him from having fulfilled this criterion: His fervor for shrinking government AND the deficit gave rise to teh Grace Commission: It is not his albatross that Congress, by and large, ignored their recommendations.
  • (4) Workers’ right to secret ballot by opposing card check: Since "Card Check" wasn't a consideration at the time, it is hard to imagine how Reagan would have "failed" this. He was president of SAG, a union, but he still stood by the secret ballot.
  • (5) Legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants: Yes, already stipulated: He made a wrong move here.
  • (6) Victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges: His attempts to win over Iran notwithstanding, HAD Reagan been involved in a military war on terror, he would have supported the FIELD COMMANDERS recommendations. That is what this item is based on ... not some attempted strain to loosely affiliate him with "befriending" Saddam Hussein (or etc.).
  • (7) Containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat: Iran and North Korea were not nuclear threats at the time. Hard, then, to suggest how he would have responded had they become such during his watch: We know he favored restraining or elimnating nuclear proliferation by his responses to Russia (et al).
  • (8) Retention of the Defense of Marriage Act: Also not quite sure how you arrived at this one since homosexual marriage was not an issue when he was president.
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Troglodyte
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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Elroy El wrote: Who was behaving this way? Certainly not the GOP that worshipped him while he was President?

I'm thinking you're memory is shorter than your pecker.

Unless you're saying the GOP stood for deficit spending and tax hikes during his tenure as both goveror and president.

A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised.

Is that what you mean when you say the GOP was already behaving that way?
The people, not only the GOP, loved Reagan... Maybe the GOP could use his record as a measuring stick.
Party ideals don't resonate with the voting public, as the democrats are soon to find out. :wink:
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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GOODave wrote:
  • (1) Smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama’s “stimulus” bill: Reagan actually did support smaller government:
He supported it in campaigns, but that's not how he governed both California and the U.S.

Personally, I liked the real Ronald Reagan, not the conjured up image that has taken his place.

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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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Troglodyte wrote: The people, not only the GOP, loved Reagan... Maybe the GOP could use his record as a measuring stick.
Party ideals don't resonate with the voting public, as the democrats are soon to find out. :wink:
Exactly. Reagan tried to bring people in. There is now a movement to push people out of the Republican Party, and the irony is that they misuse Reagan as their symbol.

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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Fordama wrote:He supported it in campaigns, but that's not how he governed both California and the U.S.
He supported it in his presidency, too. I'm really sorry you missed that part: I know you would have enjoyed the Grace Commission findings.
Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Elroy El »

GOODave wrote: He supported it in his presidency, too. I'm really sorry you missed that part: I know you would have enjoyed the Grace Commission findings.
He campaigned on a platform of smaller government. He enlarged it in reality. I agree with Fordy on this issue. While he commissioned the Grace Commission, he implemented none of it.

You want to believe I am disparaging him by pointing out that he not only enlarged government, but he increased taxes to do it. If nothing else, he campaigned as a conservative, but governed pragmatically.

His fiscal policy is anything but conservative. Few people may remember that when Ronald Reagan took office, the federal budget was only $678 billion. During his 8-year tenure, the budget grew by 69%.

The annual average increase in government during Reagan's administration was 6.8%, compared with "big government" Bill Clinton's average annual increase of 3.6%.

Reagan promised to balance the budget within his first term. Instead, the annual deficit rose from $79 billion to $212 billion in that first term — and the Reagan years added $1.9 trillion to the federal debt.

His pragmatism is one of the many reasons I believe he should be considered a great president.

That same pragmatism would also have him failing the GOP Purity test that is wanted by those folks.
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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Elroy El wrote:If nothing else, he campaigned as a conservative, but governed pragmatically.
And pragmatism was anathema to the Democrats in the late 70's and early 80's, and is anathema to conservatives today.

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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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Elroy El wrote: He campaigned on a platform of smaller government. He enlarged it in reality. I agree with Fordy on this issue. While he commissioned the Grace Commission, he implemented none of it.
It wasn't up to him to implement any of it. Peter Grace testified before Congress on the commission's findings: They pretty much thanked him for his time and told him "don't call us, we'll call you"
Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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GOODave wrote: It wasn't up to him to implement any of it. Peter Grace testified before Congress on the commission's findings: They pretty much thanked him for his time and told him "don't call us, we'll call you"
Like I said earlier. He campaigned on smaller government. But enlarged it.

That would be a partial disqualifier for those wanting a purity test.
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Troglodyte
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

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Elroy El wrote: Like I said earlier. He campaigned on smaller government. But enlarged it.

That would be a partial disqualifier for those wanting a purity test.
A president can't effect the size of government, or the budget, except for temporary appointment's (Tzars). Congress does that.
The Prez just gets all the credit, or blame, as the case may be. Read the Constitution as to the duties and separation of powers.
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Elroy El
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Elroy El »

Troglodyte wrote:A president can't effect the size of government, or the budget, except for temporary appointment's (Tzars). Congress does that.
The Prez just gets all the credit, or blame, as the case may be. Read the Constitution as to the duties and separation of powers.
Conservatives like to blame the increase in government on the Democratic Congress. But Presidents have the power of veto.

Pens are cheap. A President can sign thousands of vetoes. Unless his opposition can muster a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, nothing can be forced on him.

The determining factor is whether the President has the will to reduce government. If he does, no one can stop him.

And while Reagan did veto some bills (unlike George W. Bush), in eight years Congress passed only nine bills over Reagan's veto. And only one of those was a budget bill.
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GOODave
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by GOODave »

Elroy El wrote: Like I said earlier. He campaigned on smaller government. But enlarged it.
.
You said it ... but no one believes it and, because you are both unwilling to and incapable of providing evidence to support it, you are not credible.
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Troglodyte
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Re: Conservatives Want Republican Purge Trials

Post by Troglodyte »

Elroy El wrote: Conservatives like to blame the increase in government on the Democratic Congress. But Presidents have the power of veto.

Pens are cheap. A President can sign thousands of vetoes. Unless his opposition can muster a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, nothing can be forced on him.

The determining factor is whether the President has the will to reduce government. If he does, no one can stop him.

And while Reagan did veto some bills (unlike George W. Bush), in eight years Congress passed only nine bills over Reagan's veto. And only one of those was a budget bill.
Congress controls the purse strings.. It can continue funding any program they want, even if the president disagrees. They can withold funding from any program they don't like. They must create and approve legislation, programs, departments, and positions. The only option the president has is to OK, or veto, but that too can be over ridden.
The president may have the will, but not the power. Witness the healthcare debates. Obama wants the program, but congress must agree and fund it.
Witness our governor. He, like other governors before him, wanted to trim government and reduce taxes. The state houses and bureaucrats stymied him at every turn. The same type constitution and conditions exist there as in DC..
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